These transcripts deal with themes of mental illness and trauma
Cassandra interviewed Ada in an apartment close to their old high school late at night. They met in their first year of high school in history class and have stayed friends for the past nine years.
Okay. So please state your name, your age, and your gender identity and presentation (both laugh)
Um…Ada. I’m 22, and I have been identifying as gender fluid for maybe a little over three years now.. consistently. And um, presentation is mostly understood as masculine. Uh, like… I keep like a little short mustache and I don’t really shave my pits or anything but… I’m… not scruffy (Cassandra laughs). That made me sound pretty scruffy but I’m not, I might be a little smelly. So that’s my gender presentation: might be a little smelly and dudes who seemed to want to get into fights apparently back off when I raised my voice, which happened actually yesterday. I can talk more about that if you want (both laugh)
Validating? Maybe? Question mark?
Validating and also like…. I’m annoyed (both laugh)
Okay. Um, so do you want to talk about kind of like realizing that you were not a cis human and, what that was like?
Yeah, so actually like, in like, I guess 2010, I started talking to the person who I was dating at the time, um, about different pronouns because I had like looked on the internet and there were many different pronouns and I was like, oh, I didn’t hear about these different pronouns, let me explore that. Um, and it was really eye-opening and I started reading some stories… some ways that people present… ideas and ways… like clothing might be really important to them or how they keep their body hair or like, how they smell. Um, and also like… I don’t know, I honestly think I was just researching dysmorphia and then dysphoria came up and I was like, oh, what’s the difference? Um, and there’s a difference. But also with my self worth as it ties into my weight, uh, it… it’s just I’ve always been interested in the line between like fatness and femme-ness and queerness and masc-ness. I feel like I’m always toeing and exploring those lines. And I’ve worked up to a point where it’s mostly in healthy ways, but I don’t always trust that it started out that way. So that’s interesting. But yeah, 2010.
Do you want to elaborate more about, kind of like how that intersection exists?
Yeah…. when I was 12 I went with my parents to Egypt on this grant my mom got from working at her school and we… uh, we went to this little island and… like by boat and it was really cool experience and we passed by these… little, like… this little village house. Um, and there were these two young men standing outside, like outside the door, and they cat-called me in English and then like in Arabic or I don’t really want to presume the language but Arabic was pretty much the main… um… and it sounded like that to me. Um, and I didn’t… know how to respond because I think that was one of my first times being cat-called, maybe my first time ever. And I realized like things about… I don’t know… desire. And I didn’t realize how inappropriate it was until my dad’s started, like physically charging at them, not that he would have hit them, but he did want to let them know, “Hey, I’m walking and this is my child. (Ada laughs) And that is the end.” So that was an experience. And then um, I put on quite a bit of weight in high school. So middle school I stayed like relatively, I mean I was very developed at twelfth. I was probably… a really desirable category in porn to some horrible men at twelve (Cassandra makes sound of upset) and I just, I think about that, I don’t want to, but.
Agh
I know, I know. So anyway, (Ada laughs) just like for a variety of like, identity factors and like, yeah… so that’s disgusting. Um, but it… it’s not wrong, like many things in the world (both laugh). Um, so… anyways, I… uh, put on quite a bit of weight in high school and um, due to like medications and depression, whatever, um, and… I realized that when I was like, 12 through 14, I got a lot more random expressions of desire whether they were violent or innocent or whatever is in between violence and innocence because sometimes there’s something there…. um at that age than when it was becoming maybe a little… a little bit more appropriate to receive those things, um, I didn’t start really having sexual desire until the summer before 10th grade. So it’s weird. It’s very weird.
I guess now that I’m strong and I mean physically, like I’m getting stronger and I’m working out and I’m building up muscle and I see results, Um, I like my body more. I like the potential of my body. I’ve never liked the potential of my body very much. I’ve liked it as… as in like…. sexually, there is a lot of gratification I can receive from people being interested in me, but I also have a lot of weird trauma that goes into that. So… sometimes I don’t like that at all and it’s odd, it’s like, my self worth has really kind of gone through the roof with this new development and I guess now also that I’ve, you know… I’ve been masc identifying for… for years and I just… I really don’t get any sort of attention like the… like that unwanted attention that I think a lot of my femme identifying friends do or even just non binary friends who like, kind of wear whatever the fuck they want and don’t really have a set wardrobe presentation.
Um, but I’ve spoken to some fat queer people who maybe have a little more body hair. They also don’t experience those catcalls too often… or if they do they’re cat calling in a way that’s like, like, “you’re a freak, you can get with me”. Like it’s something else to that kind of, um…. and like it’s, it’s violence to anyone when it happens. But I think it’s just interesting how presentation goes into that and changes that.
Also, um, a couple times in 2018…the year that just passed (Ada laughs), I started to get into situations… I mean, the temper is high where I live too, but it’s high everywhere…. but I’ve started to get into like situations like randomly on the street, like 34th street or like bedstuy in the middle of the night or something where like…. people who are a little belligerent or naturally kind of explosive seem to notice me in a way that suggests they’d like to like… pick me out for a fight, um, or my partner. And that’s been odd because I’ve been very ready in those situations to kind of throw down. And I think that has a lot to do with how they are perceiving my masculinity and how I can use that against them if I need to and use that for myself and for the protection of my loved ones at the same time.
So you feel that it’s kind of… it’s kind of, they’re… they’re noticing you and targeting you in this way because of…. they’re getting a vibe of like gender that they recognize and don’t recognize in a… in a way?
I think so. Sometimes when my back is turned on a crowded train, um… the person who’s passing by me to get to the exit, will say, “oh, excuse me sir”, I find that very validating in a very strange way.
Well, do you want to talk about exactly how… kind of like you feel gender, like how does… like nonbinary needs a whole bunch of different things. So what does it feel like for you? And obviously like, fluctuate and things… but like as fluctuations…. are incorporated into it.
I feel gender in my hands and my stomach, which is also where I feel anxiety and anger.
(section omitted)
This is a question that I generally ask like an hour in, but… (Ada laughs) since you brought up, what does that mean to you? Like, how do you personally define it in how you feel a connection to it?
I think I’m like, woman adjacent.
Yeah
Um…
I guess, what are the traits or qualities that you point to and identify with and what are the ones that you feel like you eschew?
Mm… Mmmm…. I don’t know because I do a lot of work to not associate specific things with womanhood.
Yeah… that’s what… I’m not asking for like any universal thing, it’s more like, what… what does that mean for you personally? On a very, very specific…
Oh, just like being… being socialized as… as a young woman and as someone who needs to learn how to protect herself.
So for you it’s like the constructed socialized experience?
Yeah.
Okay.
But also I find that there are strengths inherent in many woman and woman adjacent people, um… that are not in men and men adjacent people. Um… and that has no… that has no, like absolute quality to it at all. It’s just like something that I noticed that, um… like, I woke up a year and a half ago and realized that I wanted to be a parent and it was just very swift and… ever since then I’ve been like, better with babies, less nervous around kids and really like… open to that possibility. And um… I dunno, I just, I think that’s something that always interests me because I wouldn’t place that into like… like, oh, like wanting to be a parent is automatically motherhood because I was like, designated female at birth. Like, no, absolutely not. It’s parenthood. (Ada laughs) It’s like… it’s wanting to have a child whatever way that comes about. That’s literally just the entire feeling.
But uh, yeah, I think like, yeah… I associate that with being socialized… being socialized. But I also really admire and love many women… many cis women and many nonbinary women. Just, I really like… yeah, I really admire them. I love them. I want to protect them more than I want to protect… men.
Do you want to talk a little bit… so that you have the example of like what happened in Egypt and kind of like growing up, do you feel… the question is basically like, what was your experience… um, as someone who was perceived at least as a woman for a while, um, so like do you feel like that kind of encompasses…. like the things that you’ve said encompassed that experience or kind of like sum up what that experience was like?
Yes but there’s another element and I’m not really sure how to talk about this but… we’ll try. Um, it wasn’t only showing masculinity and identifying with masculinity that made me… less desirable it is also obviously fatness in a way that I am very uncomfortable with saying this, but I do want to because someone else brought it up in a way that was really interesting to me like, years ago. And I was like, wow. And from a… from a thin person too. And I was like, wow, that’s so interesting that like… there’s almost this sense of like, horrible… jealousy that comes with knowing that like, you’re not a target in the way that your… like, thin friends are. And it’s… I don’t want to be, but… it’s just like this weird, ugly feeling and like I don’t… I don’t totally get it, but man, like it’s just… it’s just strange. It’s strange how even though that’s a horrible thing to happen, my self worth is so tied up in this sort of presentation
Because it’s like, coded, this is how you have to be desired. And then it’s like, well, you’re not being desired in that way then it’s kinda like a…
Yeah. Yeah. It kind of… Yeah, like you’re not desired in that way…. yeah. Weird. Very weird. I dunno, I just, I don’t really have the words around it, but I don’t want to villainize the feeling. I just want to get to know… get to know it better.
(Section omitted)
Um, to backpedal a little bit…. um, so how do you feel about the things that you’ve been diagnosed with? Like do you feel like they’re fairly accurate diagnosis? Do you feel like there are any symptoms that aren’t quite covered under anything? Just because like… diagnoses, like they’re useful but also they’re not… the end all be all. So like how do you feel about them?
Um… I think they’re pretty accurate. Depression is like… a lot of feelings at once, including the absence of feelings. (a cat comes up to both of them and chirps at them) Cat interruption… (both laugh)
For the record, there’s a cat running around…
There is a cat and he is… (the cat runs under the table) this way
You have two wolves inside of you…(both start laughing) one is depression (laughing continues), the other one is also depression…
(Both say simultaneously, referencing a meme Cassandra sent Ada a few weeks before) You have depression (Ada laughs)
Yeah, exactly. So that sums up depression… (Cassandra laughs) and… anxiety. Yeah I’m like an anxious… anxious bitch. But it’s interesting like it’s generalized anxiety, um, but I really think I have anxiety over very specific issues and they just go back to my depression. I don’t really have a lot of social anxiety. Um, I am comfortable in a way I probably shouldn’t be on trains actually, like on long train rides, I’m just like chillin and like, eating a fucking ham sandwich. I’m like blaring… blaring like stuff in my headphones, far side or some shit. And I’m just like, yeah, yeah. Hell yeah.
A real New Yorker
I know, really. Um, but um, but phone calls. Yeah. Terrible with phone calls. Terrible. Terrible with facetime. Terrible with uh… uh, emailing sometimes gets to me though. Not as much now because I have a little like email scheduler. So like sometimes I literally just schedule it for two minutes ahead because that’s how much I don’t want to press the send button (Cassandra laughs) but I press the schedule button (Ada laughs) but I can’t go back on… so I have some problems (both laugh). But you know… they are mitigated by technology to some extent.
You schedule to send the email two minutes after you finish it?
Yeah (Cassandra laughs). Instead of pressing the send button because that’s like… that’s how much I don’t want to take ownership of that (Ada laughs) specific thing that I just send it
At least it gets sent
It gets sent!
Um, so this is a very broad question. So you can take two minutes on this or you can take three hours… those are the only two options (Both laugh)
Okay…. well, y’know… we’ll see (Cassandra laughs)
But basically, what’s your personal history with mental illness. So…
Oh my God
(Section omitted)
I actually started dating someone pretty soon after that and… he’s an incredibly good person, just… just probably one of the better people ever in the world. Like that’s just… (insert name of one of past partners)…. like fucking hell. So he and I had an intense but like overall good relationship and we’re friends now and um, none of the intensity is there for… I mean, I just think we have to leave that behind at a certain point, you have to leave that behind with someone. Um, but like I will always like really love him and be like, deeply affected by kind of… what we were able to do for each other and I am regretful because I know like how intense of a person I was at that time and I know there are certain times where like, I felt like I couldn’t protect him and so I would freak out over text and like have this whole fucking crisis when like he just needed like a, “hey, that sucks and I love you”. But instead I was like, (Ada makes barking sounds), like a fucking terrier with just nothing to bite onto just like, oh my god, whom do kill? I probably must express agony (both laugh). But sometimes he was really inclined towards that too. So I guess you know that that helps when you’re both… crazy (both laugh).
Um, yeah. And so I started to see some changes in my self worth and like, that was kind of nice and I had a really solid group of friends… really solid group of friends. And I, uh, mostly survived high school because of my friends and because I was like… I mean, as much as I hate myself, they would fucking miss me, man. Like that would suck for them (both laugh). That really weird place that depression takes you, like suicidal depression where you’re just like, yeah, I guess you matter enough to these idiots. Like, that’s weird (Cassandra laughs). But you can’t say that their feelings are wrong so…. like… whoops. Like, I dunno what they get out of it but they get something. Um, so yeah, sometimes bitterly and sometimes happily survived in spite of myself in 11th and 12th grade. (Ada starts) Oh, that was… myself. You didn’t touch me, did you?
No
Oh, okay. Well, whatever. It’s cool. I believe in ghosts, so that’s okay (both laugh). 11th grade was hard. It was really hard. I’m really proud that I got through 11th grade actually. I know that I was technically only like, suicidal suicidal when I attempted suicide, but… that’s not really true. I was suicidal but I wasn’t ready.
You don’t have to validate it to me (Ada laughs)
Yeah. Um, but, uh, I… 11th grade was really hard and one of my closest friends wasn’t there. That was really hard. We definitely weren’t exactly the same when she came back. Um, and I broke up with (insert name of one of past partners)… but I broke up with (insert name of one of past partners) and like a really… in like a really profound way. Um, and like a really magical way almost. I remember I started playing… I started putting, like, I put my ipod touch on shuffle or whatever, or my… I don’t know…my phone, I had my phone and, it started playing the, like a song that like played at the end of a movie, like when I visited their– his college campus. And it was like, it became our song for awhile. And so like that song played like a first fucking one and I told him when he was just like, “that seems right. That’s extremely accurate”. Um, but yeah, I realized how much I had matured kind of when we… when we broke up and um, it really felt like a separation, but definitely for the best in the long run. Um, it was really hard. It was really harmful.
In a way I felt even worse like the two weeks or so before where else is kind of in this limbo and I was realizing how desperately I wanted to still feel in love with him, but the distance was just too much, so… that was hard. But I actually, I went to school the next day or like, I don’t know when, but I like I told a couple of people that we had broken up and they literally just like, immersed me in this group hug that I was at the center of. I think it was like, a couple of weird people too. I think it was um… Oh, um, what’s his name? (Cassandra laughs) Jesus. The hell was his name?
(Section omitted)
Um, yeah, so… something in me started to feel a little better like breakthrough into feeling like, I could live and maybe not just survive. I started to really like take comfort and love that people showed kind of at face value instead of like me owing my usefulness to them or like them, like… only liking me because like I’m funny and self deprecating enough to like not make everyone super uncomfortable but like, slightly uncomfortable so that they laugh, you know, because if it’s not uncomfortable at all, they don’t really laugh. Um… (Ada laughs)
They say, laughing (both laugh)
Yeah because it’s uncomfortable. (Ada looks at the time) Oh my God. Okay. Last time I looked at that it 10… it was 10:30. Um, so I’m… I’m definitely choosing the three hour option on this question (both laugh).
It was a binary choice.
It was, it was. Well, not very many choices in my life are binary Sarah, so… (Cassandra laughs)
Is your gender three hours or two minutes? (both laugh)
Ah yes, the two genders (both are laughing) This is my best friend (Cassandra makes affectionate noise). I’m so proud of them. I love you so much.
I love you too. I’m so proud of you
Oh, no, shut up (both laugh) So anyway… um, I promise we’re not married. (referencing an inside joke) Only in the dreams when we’re old men with flowers in our beards, atop of the mountain, we’re like, “hey, how did we get to Scotland? I don’t know, but we also got married. Oh, okay, well, let’s go take a hike (both laugh)”.
Yep, that seems about right
Nice to catch up. That’s good.
“How do we get this many dogs following us, but they’re here now”
Yep
(said whispered) They’re all depression.
That sounds great
It was awesome. It was awesome. We like, held hands while reading sometimes. It’s cute and I went to like, a Ricky’s with her. I always feel like I ended up with like, really good friends in Ricky’s. Like, you and I were at Ricky’s at least a couple of times just doing inane things. (insert name of friend) and I were in Ricky’s because Halloween was coming up I guess, although I think she ended up buying her outfit at like American apparel. I don’t know. It was weird (both laugh). And then my current partner like um, went to ricky’s like a couple of times, the first time we started dating and then like, the day that we actually admitted that we loved each other (Cassandra makes sound of affection), we went to a ricky’s and there was this book and it was like, “the reasons I like all the reasons I love you”. And it was like a fill it in book and it was like all these blanks, like, “I love when you do blank” or like, “I love when you’re so blank with me”. And, and like, so (insert name of current partner) kept on saying like really nice, solid, reassuring things are really romantic and I kept saying things like, “I love when you are a pineapple” (both laugh). And… cause that’s love. That’s what you do. You just… say shit like that. Cause… you’re a mess. So yeah, Ricky’s has been some weird way point in my life and in my intimate… relationships… my deep friendships.
I feel like that makes sense.
So basically if you’re in a ricky’s with me, you have like, an increasing chance of either falling in love with me or just becoming really long like, lifelong friends
Is that a spell? Are you casting a spell on the people reading this transcript?
I mean it’s not even a spell that I’ve cast, but like it’s worked. It’s like, someone else cast it and it’s been very successful. You should draw me as a ricky’s (both laugh). That should be your thesis. I don’t know how it would happen.
I’ll take that into consideration.
Namzugs (both still laughing)
Okay. Okay. Senior year made good friends, opened up to people
Yeah and I mean I had amazing friends before senior year. I just made different friends and I was able to talk more outside of my like, comfortable zone. Um, and I did pretty well in school. Senior year I was kind of realizing my academic potential. Finally as I was graduating it was like, I guess I’ll get A’s. It’s so annoying, like I’ve always been smart enough to get A’s and I just have never been smart enough to get A’s. It’s so bad. Like, intelligence v behavior (Ada laughs). Like, no, meet me halfway. No? Okay. All right… B minus it is.Thanks for keeping that paper you fucking finished in your room for three weeks and then handing it in late because you were so anxious about handing in in late (Ada sighs and laughs). And so… that still happens, by the way. One of the reasons I’m still in college. But I’m working on it.
Oh yeah…. and then after high school… um, summer after high school was like, really fulfilling. I able to go to Spain. That was amazing. I went with my grandparents, that was just wild and I um, went to college and it was great. My first year of college was great. I was pretty happy and um, I had a short term relationship with someone that was kind of weird, but it’s fine. And then I had… a really hot… really hot person…. and then I had a… a much longer term relationship with someone and that was weird. Very passionate. Was very intellectual, spicy. Really sexually gratifying.
(Section omitted)
Um, but yeah, I’ve just, I still have this really intense relationship to desire. And when people desire me, I automatically owe them something… um, favors or flattery or my body or just… I don’t know, anything. Comfort. Um, the truth is, no. I mean, when someone is good to you or they’re just doing what they should do, like as long as you’re a good person and they like you and you like them, when someone is good to you, that’s face value how they should behave. And it just takes acknowledging that and being gracious to that and… finding ways to… you know, pay it forward. That’s not charity, it’s just love. It’s like, intimacy with someone on any… any sort of level.
I keep saying to (insert name of partner) like I want… I want to be with you as long as we treat each other well because I was with someone when we stopped and it was very painful. It was like I… I was in a… two year friendship with someone that was in a two point five year relationship with me and… they definitely held on for longer, as far as like… loving someone goes, like loving someone when they’ve hurt you. I always have to… I mean I don’t feel guilty about it anymore, but… you feel it. Like we were both just not good anymore with each other.
(Section omitted)
So, uh, I wasn’t such a partier after that and um, the parties I did attend, I made sure to like, dance a lot more and um just space out drinking because I can take quite a few down before I realize that I’m anywhere near buzzed. And then by that time I’m way closer to wasted and I still think I’m like, just over the line of buzzed. So yeah, just try to get an earlier bedtime and dance a lot more to sweat the alcohol out.
Uh… mental health. So yeah, I guess that’s.. I mean that’s not sped up to now. I mean I really… I had a terrible time senior year of college and I um, I mean yeah my… my seventh term at college so my first semester senior year basically I like, failed almost all my classes. I just like stopped working. I stopped going to class a lot of the time and I didn’t hand in any assignments and I was really codependent and I was just like, um… I basically… for most of that term waited until about 8 or 9:00 PM to eat my first meal of the day and I would go and I would walk to the cafeteria and I would put it all on the a box and I would go home.
I write my thesis sometimes. I don’t know why the fuck I was writing my thesis when I wasn’t doing any other work but I did um… and yeah, I just like, I couldn’t pass that term. I had like, maybe three credits from that term and uh… so I took a leave of absence from Bennington and I went home and I didn’t really work or do anything for a bit. I did actually work. I worked, um, I did my, like last field work term, um, which at Bennington is like a winter program, winter work program. Um, and that was actually a nice experience for me, but I was also… doing a lot of like, talking to my academic advisor and like Blah Blah Blah. So it was stressful.
Um, I actually really liked the days I worked full time, like, I had… had like… two days a week I would work from like 9:30 to 6:30 and I really enjoyed that, um, just because it was really like, just kind of took my mind off things and I was working with kids and I was working with like, poetry and it was just like, fulfilling stuff. One time a kid’s work got tossed out the window for some reason, but we could see it was stuck somewhere. So I literally climbed out of the window and shimmied down the pipe thing to get it for them.
I think you told me that story, yeah (Cassandra laughs)
(Section omitted)
In all the story that you’ve told me, what’s the thing that you’re proudest of?
Uh… (both laugh)
For the record, they just gave me a blank stare.
I thought it was more like a stare of terror, but yeah.
Blank terror
Blank terror. Yup. Yup, Yup. Yup.
That’s my gender
I have a couple of things, if I can say a couple of things.
No, only one thing (said jokingly)
Ok, I’m going to say a couple things. Um…not two minutes of things or three hours… just… in the middle. Um, just… I finally started to… tell people that I’m in a bad place when I’m in a bad place. Not all the time, not necessarily often, but like… I have reached out and noticed that I have supports in major ways, um… and that feeling when (insert name of one of past partners) and I broke up. I’m… I’m weirdly proud of that feeling, like inhabiting that feeling. It’s like, um, I mean it’s definitely bittersweet. Definitely very bitter, but like not really bitter…. just felt kind of like… renewal and closure and like… like there was something to really like kind of persevere towards. And I think I kept pushing. I mean I did… I obviously kept pushing. Um…(Long pause)
I graduated Trinity. I was at Trinity for all of it. Every… every of it… every bit of it. And I graduated. And I don’t associate that day with any pride because I was so fucking disoriented. But… no, yeah, definitely like, just kind of… faking it till I actually made it past 18 when there was just no understanding of that like… process.
Yeah, I think those are the things that I most…. also (insert name of partners, past and present) were all… have all been super in love with me and they are all deeply amazing people… deeply and you love me and you’re deeply amazing person (Cassandra makes sound of affection) and like… I’m incredibly grateful for that. Like there must be something I’m doing that’s good (Cassandra laughs quietly).
All of it
So I’m proud of me for being like, a good enough person that y’all are like, “Yeah!”
You are the good in this world (Ada laughs) What’s the thing that you would point to as like, the thing that you’re struggling most with right now with? With the depression feels?
Um.. just stagnation. Being in a rut of not pushing myself enough. Losing steam very quickly.
Yeah
Yeah
Yeah, that’s fair
But I finally started like, getting out of bed before 10 again so… I was not doing that for awhile there. Not great. But fortunately I now have to walk my dog again.
Are you taking her with you when you move?
No, no, no, no. She’s (insert name of mom’s husband)’s dog. She’s really… she is a family dog, like I love her, but yeah, no I’m not… and I couldn’t take care of a dog I think. I mean I would, but like I just… I wouldn’t do enough with her and we’d both be kind of miserable and I’d rather be kind of miserable with like, another human or alone than subjugate a dog to that because dogs deserve everything and are angels
True facts about dogs. Um, so people have different metaphors or similes that they use to describe mental illness. Um, there’s like the black dog or like, the cloud in your head. Um, and I think that these are useful because I think that they help… explain how people position themselves, um… to their mental illness. So I was wondering for you, how does it feel and… and since there’s…. there’s more than one diagnosis and more than one thing it can be… obviously several things, but like, how does it feel to you?
I don’t have that. I don’t have a metaphor for it.
You don’t have to describe in the metaphor. I guess just what does it feel like an even more literal sense?
Uh, different things at different times. Um, stagnation… overwhelming feeling of guilt or shame or both, um…
Does it feel more internal like a part of you or external, like something happening to you?
Internal
Um.. usually I have my questions in front of me. I’m trying to see how well I can remember them… um, so you talked… you said your anxiety gets triggered in very specific situations that kind of related to your depression. I imagine like, trauma things probably bring those up. Um, maybe?
Yeah
Um, you said phone calls, emails. What are… what are some other sorts of situations that tend to make things worse?
I mean I feel anxious when someone can read that I’m going through something in my head, but unfortunately I am often with very perceptive people
Like going through a hard time or just…
Yeah
So is it the vulnerability?
Yeah, I always… I feel like I’m putting something on them, you know, like that… so that’s part of my trouble with asking for help at all. It’s like, I feel like I’m not worth enough to like, have that kind of… be out there and like, explain a feeling because it’s like, oh, well, you’ve always had it worse than me, so why should I complain? But, I mean, it’s so useless, but like, it still crops up from time to time. So it gives me some anxiety. Um… loud noises, but not all loud noises. I’m… I’m really not… I love a thunderstorm. I love the ocean crashing. I love ’em. Well, I don’t love fireworks anymore. I noticed I was kind of nervous, but I don’t really hate them still. Um, I think it’s more of the shrill noises of the other things are like… the windy things. They’re just so loud, um…
The train squealing as it passes by?
Those are fine… Trains are fine. It’s annoying and it hurts sometimes, but it’s not… I don’t get scared of that. I could fall asleep very easily on trains um weirdly… I don’t know why, but on airplanes, absolutely not. I don’t know. It’s just, there’s a difference. It’s very odd. Um, yeah. I… it’s hard to feel like…known…. but you do often have to, in order to be with people so I’m trying to work on that giving me less anxiety?
(Section omitted)
That’s okay. Um, how do you interact with other people with mental illness?
Pretty openly. Depends I guess, but they’re, you know, know those young depression millennials like me… strike up a conversation pretty easily
Since we’re talking about interactions with other people, do you want to return to the question about um, gender and intimacy?
(Long pause, Cassandra starts to laugh) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
If you don’t… if you still don’t have anything to say, that’s okay. These are all difficult questions.
I play with gender in bed. I like to… um, but it’s not role playing. It’s just like fluidity and exploration and kink.
Um, so to get to a very leading question that is the thesis of this entire project
Oh man
Which is, um, do you feel like there’s been an interaction between your being socialized as femme and your mental illness? Which to be fair, you have listed several things that could qualify as such (Cassandra laughs)
Have I? I don’t know what they are (said jokingly) I forget, I’ve been talking for so long about myself.
You forget your life (Ada makes a sound of distress) That’s okay. We’re nearing the end.
I am… small and gay and I need help (said jokingly, Cassandra laughs)
Okay (both laugh) Is that most of what you have to say on that subject?
Yes (both still laughing) I mean if you can identify those moments as you’re listening back, like, I guess that would be good? Or you can like send me questions and be like, “does this suffice” but I’m just like… I’m completely lost on that question. I definitely have answered that. I just don’t know how to locate it at all.
Yeah, how to point to it explicitly be like… I mean like I… I feel like a lot of things that you talked about with grappling with desire and gender and… which obviously does get into, you are not a femme person, but I feel like those two experiences are kind of an inextricable from each other anyways.
Yeah, they are.
Um, and kind of… the way that interacts with mental illness is…
Also people expect femme people to make themselves smaller for them all the time. Let me rephrase that (Cassandra laughs). Men expect femme people to make themselves smaller for them all the time and just occupy less space and just… have less of a self for them. It’s just that I… usually subvert that and I often… take up a little more space with men and… I try to like, notice the ways in which my like, masc presentation, like can sometimes be weird if I’m like, walking directly behind a femme person. I usually try to like slow down and like… let’s do something. Especially if I’m like, with my big dog, sometimes I’ll just cross the street because like, I don’t like feeling followed behind, regardless the gender of the person, but especially if they’re someone I, out of the corner of my eye, might ID masc.
Just like a, “oh, they’re physically stronger than me. Merp”
Yeah. Yeah.
(Section omitted)
Um, so is there anything you want to talk about that you don’t feel it was covered in these questions?
(Ada shakes head)
Okay. Um, so you’ve sat with me and you have answered my questions. So I want to extend the offer to you to ask me any questions if you have them… you know… most things inside my brain (both laugh). But, um, if you want to turn any of the questions around on me, if you want to ask me anything about the project, any questions that you might possibly have, you’re welcome to ask them… if you so desire.
It just… reminds me of the scene in parks and rec where Ben’s like, “April, like, I think I know what’s going on inside your head” and April is like, “oh, well then welcome to the Terrordome” (both laugh) which is great.
Yeah, that feels about right.
It feels… feels… feels accurate… feels… it feels good (Long pause, Cassandra laughs)
Um, you don’t have to have a question. That’s okay.
What was one of the like… more… because you interviewed yourself?
I… Howard and Jade interviewed me, which I guess you’ve never met them, but I feel like you have because I just talk about them enough (Cassandra laughs)
They’re people that you know
Yeah, I was… I was going to type up my own answers, but they’re like, “no, you also need to be interviewed”. I was like, “oh, ok”
No, yeah, that’s true. Um, what was… like…. did any of your own questions kind of take you by surprise or stop you up a little bit?
Um, I mean, first off I like… I was thinking about this for weeks beforehand and was like, here’s what I think is important to say like, and then immediately like, it was like, name, age, gender, identity and presentation. It’s like, I’m a femme non binary person. They were like, “Cool. Let’s talk about gender for 20 minutes”. And I was like, ahhh! (both laugh) I wasn’t prepared for that. Like I was prepared to talk about being femme socialized and femme presenting, but I was like… it didn’t cross my mind that I would have to talk about being nonbinary
Gender doesn’t go into that (said jokingly, both laughing
I don’t know…just like, oh, okay, I guess we’re talking about this now. Um… I think something that sort of… I didn’t realize, but that took me by surprise. Um… was describing exactly how my anxiety functions with the way that I interact with other people because I think it’s such a fundamental part that I just like, don’t think about it, but is that I’m like, very constantly assessing other people in conversation and like, what does their body language like? What is their tone? How are they coming across? Like what are the signals they’re sending? Like I’m very hyper sensitive to other people in conversation. Um, which is why I constantly think that people are mad at me, as you are aware (Cassandra laughs). And I know… I know… I’ve always known…. I was like, yeah, I’m just someone who thinks that people are constantly mad at me. And then it was like, oh, it’s because I’m anxious. That’s why… like this is anxiety.
(Section omitted)
The Cassandra Transcripts 