Transcript 16- Grace

These transcripts deal with themes of mental illness and trauma

This conversation took place over skype. Cassandra met Grace a year and a half ago over a conversation about mental health and they’ve been friends since.

Okay, so please state your name, your age and your gender identity and presentation.

I’m Grace. I’m 18. I think I’m a cis hetero sexual female as of now.

Okay. Is there hesitation or is it just like, haven’t thought too much about it yet?

I haven’t really thought that much about it.

Okay. So leaving… leaving space for… for the possibilities of the future.

Mhmm

Um, so have you been officially diagnosed with a mental illness and if so, with what?

Yes. So, um, I have been diagnosed with major depression… major depressive disorder and also PTSD.

So what was the diagnosis process like for you?

Okay, well I didn’t really have a choice, you know, because like I was in the hospital. Um, but the interesting thing is that the first time I was hospitalized, when I got discharged they thought that I had depression and general anxiety. So like the PTSD wasn’t part of the picture yet, but then when I went back, like, the second time I was discharged, it took them a long time to realize that actually had PTSD as well. I think that was probably because I’m pretty good at hiding things and staying under the radar. I didn’t know how to feel about it and just kinda, I kinda just let it happen. I was like, okay.

Do you know how you feel about the diagnoses now or is it still kind of…?

Um, I think I’m kind of like glad that they diagnosed me because I always thought that  something was off, like it might just be because I’m like super, like weird in general or whatever, but like I feel like it gave me closure, um, in a way. So I’m kind of thankful for it.

How old were you when you were… the two times you were hospitalized?

Um, they both happened… within the last year. So I was 17.

Okay. Um, do you feel like the diagnosis that they gave you generally cover all the symptoms that you feel?

Um, yeah.

Okay. Um, so what… what sorts of… So you were hospitalized– um, so then what sorts of treatments have you tried out for these, these various mental illnesses and what has been more or less successful?

Um, so the first thing they did was start me on medication. So I’ve been on Prozac like… straight, like out of hospital until now, um, and I’ll probably still be on it for a few more years and then they also tried doing like CBT and DBT therapy. Should I go into what that is?

If you want to.

Um, I don’t know, we usually do these like, um, DBT groups which is like dialectical behavior therapy which has to do with like… accepting what is but also trying to like change things… and also just has a lot to do with like, um, I don’t know, accepting that you really… that even if you can’t change something that like… acceptance doesn’t mean approval. Just saying things like that and also practicing distress tolerance skills and things like that. Um, but I think I kind of don’t want to admit that therapy has been effective, but it has been overall more helpful than the meds.

So you don’t feel like Prozac has necessarily been super…?

Like I really… I really don’t know about that. But I do know that like… I’ve started to change the way that I think, um, and do things. So yeah.

Okay. So, um, as like a very broad general question, what has been your personal history with mental illness. That… like that is a… that is a part of it, but basically from when symptoms started manifesting to now? This is a big question. Some people spend like two minutes and some people will take two hours. So… (both laugh) I am very serious about this. I have had that exact range.

Yeah. So the thing is for this, I think I definitely started getting really, really depressed in like… fifth to seventh grade. Like… and then also I like I think I’ve always been like… overly vigilant, just like always thinking that someone’s watching me or whatever. I think that started in fifth grade and also at some point I had like a lot of panic attacks in seventh grade and I remember like dropping onto the floor in my house and just being like, I need therapy! And then like my sister, she was like, “I’ll look into it”. But then when she did it wasn’t the right time and it was financially complicated. And the whole process of getting therapists is just so involved and takes a long time. And so like I kinda just like dealt with it on my own and assumed it wasn’t important to address.

And then, I guess from like, ages 12 to 15, I think that was when I was like most depressed, but like… I was so used to it that I didn’t realize that. I remember going three days without speaking to anyone at school because I felt so removed. And then… I really didn’t get any help until I went to see the psychologist at Trinity last year because I had a panic attack after class and needed an excuse to skip a meeting. We met for a few more times to supposedly encourage me to speak more in class since that had caused my panic attack. But I guess we both knew that was a surface level issue when I started missing school because I couldn’t concentrate on work. I was too busy drafting suicide notes and watching youtube videos on how to self harm. When I told her, she wouldn’t let me leave and like ubered me to like… the emergency room for the first time. I was there for six hours and didn’t get hospitalized long term yet. Um, and then a month after… after I started therapy and I realized it wasn’t working, like that’s when actual hospitalization happened.

Um, and that’s kind of been my history with it because like, I don’t know, being part of like…  an Asian American family, like my mom, literally like… like knows nothing about mental illness. And like at first she thought I was possessed (Grace laughs) and like she was like, she literally took me to get like fire cupping and stuff which only frustrated me more. And she, and like the second I like got discharged like the first time, it was almost as if the doctors had never even spoken to her, like everything just flew out of her head. Um, and so that was really invalidating. Um, and so just in general, like, I feel like there might also be like… other members of my family with mental health issues, but like they’ve just never gotten diagnosed or whatever.

Yeah. How much, um… how much do you see it as three distinct things like PTSD, depression, anxiety, and how much do they kind of interact with each other?

Um, so the anxiety is definitely rooted in both generalized anxiety and PTSD because I get really triggered when like, um, whenever, like time is involved, like, or if I hear a clock ticking or like… someone’s counting down or whatever. Um, I also always feel like I’m being surveilled. Even in fifth grade I would just like turn around, like walking to school. I would just feel like someone was following me all the time. Um, and just like kind of overreacting whenever there were sudden noises and, um, people just told me to calm down, but I was just like, dude. And then so I think those two are kind of melded together, but then, um, depression, it’s kind of… more complicated I guess because it’s like, it’s not really like sadness, but it’s like emptiness, but it is also sadness. It’s a pretty nebulous thing and I think the dementor imagery would be fit to describe it except that depression is a dementor that I let loose on myself. So I’m just like, I don’t really know what to do with that. So that’s sort of like more of the overarching thing.

What is… um, so you said you were kind of learning to change your thinking a little bit through that, these forms of therapy, so like, well, how… how, so like what are… what are some examples or what are some… what are some patterns that you’ve started to notice had been shifting?

Um, well I noticed that um, in the past few months I feel like I’ve been able to stop myself from like… going like all the way into a downward spiral sort of thing. Um, uh, like for instance, like I used to like enjoy triggering myself sort of, um, and like now I kind of just have to like talk myself through it and it’s… I mean like it doesn’t… it’s not going to do me any good and I obviously don’t want to wind up back in the hospital but um, and also like just remembering little things like um, like my parents are doing their best, trying to understand like what I’m going through, but they could also be doing like better. Sort of like a balancing act that’s really irritating but like, um, I don’t know… that you can’t really do much about it I guess and I don’t know.

Yeah, no, that’s a good answer. Um, in terms of like, so talking about kind of like a sort of an enjoyment of… of triggering yourself. Like what does that entail? Like do you want to kind of break that down a little bit further?

Yeah, like sometimes if I know that I’m emotionally more prone to like… just like go straight into the deep end, like I might watch like… TV shows that are potentially triggering or like um, read like more violent, I don’t know, like self harm related things. Um, and like watch youtube videos about like people doing self harm related stuff. Um, and also just like.. replaying all the times that I was like trying to come up with like um, like a suicide plan and stuff like that. Just because like… I’ll… I’ll just tell myself that I’m just trying to contemplate it and think it over again just to like see how far I’ve come. But then like I’ll be really tempted to just like… go back into it again. Things like that.

So kind of like self sabotaging behaviors?

Yeah. And then also like I feel like… I realized talking to my therapist, like I’m one of those forms of self harm that I do like is… is really like just like not obvious. Like so okay this is really, really weird. But like, even when I was in elementary school, like in the summer it’d be like searing hot and I would just be wearing sweatpants and stuff and like… like hoodies and to like, because like I liked making people uncomfortable and like… obviously I was uncomfortable but I feel like it was worth it because like, I don’t know, it might’ve been with making a statement or something and also like… in the past I haven’t worn gloves in like five years because like I like… like a lot of times like my hand will start cracking and bleeding and like, um, I don’t know like why I do it, but it’s also just like, it’s not like I cut or do anything that’s like obvious, but like, I don’t know. I feel like I do these things as acts of protest and also just a major fuck you, fuck off to the world.

So it’s kind of self harm through like… active negligence of your body in a way?

Yeah

Um, have you kind of… it… it seems like this is still something you’re processing through, like have you started to figure out like what sort of role that had for you in your life or is that still something you’re figuring out?

Yeah, I’m still trying to think about what that was all about. Um, I don’t know… potentially because like no one was really paying attention to me or like… also the whole… the whole reason why I guess the first time I got discharged from the hospital and then like after five days they put me back. Um, I think part of that was because I realized that something else was wrong because like most of the PTSD diagnosis has to do with my sister and I feel like they didn’t address that the first time around and so I feel like I might’ve been subconsciously like… acting out.

What was like… how aware of it were you before, um, before they diagnosed me with PTSD? Like what was your… what was your mental state towards this sort of trauma and your experiences with it before you talked through it in therapy?

Um, well, so… the entire time I like… really didn’t know that I was… I had been through trauma. Like, even now my sessions, I’ll just start laughing and be like, are you like… are you sure? (Grace laughs) Um, so I’m sort of still in denial because I guess… like growing up like you’re so used to it, you don’t know anything else. So I’m always trying to like, um, make excuses for everything that happened and I’m like… I know that I’m doing that. I’m trying to like fix that. Um, but like, I don’t know, it just came as a shock to me. I guess I just never that those people in documentaries about abuse could actually be about me.

Okay. So it’s still like… trying to figure it out right now. In kind of the sort of journey that you’ve been on. What’s the thing that you’re proudest of?

Um, I think um… the ways that I sort of like… reintegrated myself into like… the mainstream, like after I got discharged, like especially when I went back to school, um, and things like that and like reconnected with people, um, and sorted things out. Like it was tiring. Um, because like I kind of had to tell the different groups of people different levels of stuff. Um, but it was… I don’t know, it always felt like I was like…reborn even though that sounds kind of cliche, but like it sounded like, I don’t know, it just felt like… I was who I was when I was like 5, like almost as if I… I was like that child part of myself before I even knew anything bad was happening. Almost as if my trauma could undo its effects. And so like, I don’t know. Yeah

Yeah. How, I guess, how was the… was the process of coming out of the hospital and so you kind of like… were very selectively telling people different sorts of information. What was that kind of, um, acclimation process like?

Um, well it was… it was definitely strange because I remember walking back walking into like, because I hadn’t been in school since like first semester, so I was in a new class, um, and a lot of my friends were in it and like I just met (insert name of teacher) and she was like, “oh, so how long, how long has it been?” And I was like, “oh, I haven’t been here since thanksgiving.” And this like one girl in the class, she was like, “what?” It’s like… like they didn’t apparently, like some people didn’t even notice that I wasn’t there. I was like, okay, I’m like intensely judging you right now (Grace laughs). And so… there was like that group of people who didn’t really realize what happened so that was kind of strange. I was like… fight me! And then there were people who, like, I didn’t really think would think about me, but apparently they had asked my friends, um, where I’d been, but like, um, they were kind of like vague enough about it. But like in general, my go to spiel was like, I was in the hospital, like… now I’m here, like people kind of knew not to ask. Um, and then like the teachers and friends that I like… really felt close to like actually, like told them everything, things like that. Um, and I guess… I don’t know, like I felt better because I feel like I’ve always been like going around thinking that I had something to hide. Um, so like it was… it was nice to be like seen sort of.

Yeah. What is the thing that you would point to that you’re kind of like… like I’m sure there’s a lot that’s still hard, but like in this current moment, what is the biggest struggle?

Um, I would say probably (Grace laughs), um, well I don’t know, especially like being at college and like having met all these new people and then like… obviously they don’t know the history that I have and like, especially with the whole like emotional support animals situation. Like some people like… really like haven’t bothered to ask why I would need that or like even if people do ask, you can tell that they start feeling really awkward about it and they started trying to like… tiptoe around it. Um, but I feel like the hardest part is probably like… reconnecting with like some of my old friends, um, because like I don’t want to have to like… put them through like updating them about like things that I might’ve been going through they don’t know about or like, um, just like day to day life. Like, it’s just like… awkward because for instance, like I’m staying here over break and people were just like, “so if you live in New York why are you staying here?” and I’m just like, I don’t know what to tell you. So like I kind of just avoid people.

You’re staying there to avoid your sister?

Uh, yeah. And… and just like my household in general because they kind of remind me of her. It’s like a lot.

Yeah. So… so just kinda trying to still get used to like what story to tell people, how to interact with other people in regards to this?

Yeah

Um, we’ll talk about that in a second. But um, so a lot of people have different ways of describing mental illness, uh, and kind of like coming up with metaphors for like how it feels. So there’s like the black dog or like.. the cloud in the head. Um, and I think metaphors are useful because they help… explain how people position themselves in… in regards to their mental illness. So like what, how would you describe how it feels? Um, and it can be different things for each one of these things because I’m sure like… depression might feel very different from anxiety. So like, yeah, what I guess… what sorts of metaphors or what sorts of descriptions would you use to explain it?

Um, well I… I think I sort of… it’s sort of like, I don’t know if this is too much, but like… it’s like you’re… there’s like a knife inside of your stomach and like… it’s like something’s twisting it and you know that it should like hurt but you don’t feel anything. Um, and of it sort of feels like it’s like your body’s kind of getting like inverted or like, what do you call it? Like it’s like, um, it’s like your insides are kind of like… I don’t know how to say this.

So kind of being like internally exposed in a way?

Um, yeah. And sort of like getting your… your body’s kind of inverting itself but nobody can see you or hear you.

Interesting. Okay. So is it… is it like that level of vulnerability or that level of like physical discomfort or what about that image, um, speaks to you for.. for the…these mental illnesses?

I guess it’s sort of also has to do with the numbness but then like… what you think you’re supposed to feel. I also feel like it captures how blind people can be to your emotional state and how you could literally just obliterate yourself and people wouldn’t know until they saw your body a week later.

That’s okay. Um, okay. So hold on… what’s the next… Yes. Um, so the next question is, um, you talked about like time is something that kind of triggers a trauma… trauma memories for you a little bit. Um, what are the other sorts of situations that tend to trigger the worsening of any of your mental illnesses?

Um, probably like… for instance, if I have an interaction with someone and like… I like deliberately like… have no boundaries when I’m near them and then I realize that and then I kind of just like get angry at myself for doing that all over again. Yeah.

So like you feel like you expose yourself to someone in a way that you weren’t actually comfortable with.

Mmhmmm. I tend to be a doormat person and I’m working on that.

Um, is that like, is that specifically like anxiety or is it basically kind of all of them?

Um, I think it ties into all of them because then that’s… it’s like really easy for me to like go downhill from there and starting feeling ashamed.

So what are like the more like actionable things on the day to day that make you feel better?

Um…cat memes (both laugh)

Cat memes?

Talking to people that I know are going to validate how I feel. Um, I just like… I guess being outside like… looking at nature sort of because like here you can kind of wake up early and just get away with not seeing like people which is great and like, I don’t know, I guess just like… reflecting and then like, okay, you’re going to think I’m like super weird after this. But like, um, I don’t know, I like talking to like… things. Like I like talking to like trees and like animals and stuff. Like I don’t know, I just feel like… even like inanimate objects are like beings in a way like yeah, I sound crazy (Grace laughs).

What sorts of conversations… where you can like talk about vulnerabilities or just like casual conversations?

Just casual conversations I feel like. I just feel like everything has a living soul and it’s hard to ignore that energy.

Okay. Um, oh… uh, so… so yeah, I said we were turning to talking to about other… other people. Um, so like it seems like you’re kind of still figuring out how much you tell to people around you. Is that…?

Mmmhmm.

Yeah. So what is your current thinking? Like how… how…yeah, how much do you want the people around you to know and like where is the… where are the different lines between levels of knowledge that you delineate?

So there first… like there are like my friends from home, I would say um, but not, not even all of them. So I feel like just like a couple people that I usually stick with the most like know, which encompasses like the story with my sister because that’s usually like the most personal. Um, and then from there, like my larger group of friends, they just… they don’t know… I feel like they just like know everything except what happened was like my sister, um, and then… beyond that it’s usually just like… people in my entry or like people that I might be like… acquaintances with that, like know my diagnosis, um, but like… don’t… we don’t really like talk about it that much because it’s… a lot of times they’re uncomfortable with it.

So you’re fairly open about the fact that you do deal with depression and anxiety and PTSD, but you don’t talk about the specifics of what that entails for you?

Yeah, mostly because I don’t want people to hurt me by reacting in an insensitive way that they might not even be aware of.

Um, do you have any… are there any people that you talk to on the day to day in terms of like when you’re feeling worse or when you’re feeling better or is it more like a, “hey, here’s these things that happened”?

Um, when things are getting pretty bad, um, I don’t know how likely I am to like… talk to a friend really. And I don’t really like, feel driven to like call the counseling crisis line or whatever. Um, so like I sort of like leave it up to myself and like in some ways I kind of want to like… coach myself, but then I also know that like it’s not the direction that I should go in. So I feel like… um, like recently I’ve kind of just relied on myself.

Okay. Do you feel better or worse for doing that?

Um, I don’t know because whenever I like… if I go to someone else to talk about it, I kind of like… even if I might feel better, like in the moment I feel like I’m also… it’s easier for me to invalidate myself because… Because then I’ll just be like, oh, like other people have these problems too, like why can’t I just get over it? And things like that.

Okay. So you kind of need to learn how to talk to yourself about it before you get to a place where you really feel comfortable talking to other people about it?

Yeah, that’s a good way to put it.

Okay, that makes sense. Um, so the next question is like… how do you feel like it colors your interactions with other people? And so this is a two part question, first part is like how other people act towards you on this basis and then the other… and then the second part is like a more internal, like how do you approach interactions like… dealing with these symptoms?

So I feel like when other people like… interact with me, um, I don’t know if it’s the way they come off, but I always feel like they don’t… like give it as much weight as it deserves. Like… I feel like they don’t… think of it as of as much of a part of like who I am as much as I do. Um, which is fine but offensive in a way. But like, um, I don’t… I don’t know what I’m saying. Um, but for the part where I approach other people, um, I would say that it definitely holds me back from like interacting with people. But then I guess it also helps because like… I sort of prioritize who I talk to and like… if I don’t have anything like real to say to someone, um, I don’t waste my time with them. So it’s like, yeah.

Um, how many other people are there in your life who also deal with mental illness?

Um, I would say a fair few. I have a few friends from the hospital that I still keep in contact with um, and… like do you want me to ballpark or like?

No, it’s more like a… um, it’s leading into the question of like, how do you interact with other people with mental illness? You don’t want to give me an exact number.

(Grace laughs) Um, and I know a lot of people who have like… dealt with like, um, anorexia and have attempted suicide in the past like for instance, um, but I feel like right now… we might not be talking about it as much.

Okay (Long pause, Grace shrugs, both laugh)

Um, so… so to switch gears a little bit, um, what… same way you gave, kind of like a personal history of dealing with mental illness, what has been your history, um, as someone who identifies as a woman. So that… that’s, that’s like a lot of different ways to approach that. Um, so I can give you some examples. So like… sometimes there’s like the… you know, how have you been treated as a woman? There’s also the… like, how have you come to think of that identity or, um, perceive that identity from an internal perspective? Yeah, it’s basically like a personal history of like how that identity has played a role in your life.

Okay. So that’s definitely… it’s a frustrating thing to think about because like, um, I remember this one time when I was like eight and we were like… my family, we’re getting ready to like go to the museum. And my mom was like… and I really didn’t like wearing dresses, right? But then of course she came to me and she was like, “if you don’t wear a dress, they’re not going to let you in”. I was just like, are you serious? And then like, and they ended up not letting her in because she had food but like… I don’t know, I feel like that one moment kind of like captures like my experience. I always… I grew up like not really caring, but then like obviously… I kind of just lost my train of thought. Um…

The experience with the museum encapsulates your… your… um, your feelings towards it or your… your overall experience

Um, I guess like my overall experience… um, can you ask me another question or something?

Yeah, yeah, that’s fine. So the next question kind of goes into like, what does it mean for you to be a girl? Um, which is a harder question actually. (Cassandra laughs) Um, but it’s like another way that I’ve rephrased it for several people that kind of makes it easier is like, what qualities of yours kind of fit into that gender because… so it’s like, it’s hard because gender is very personal thing for you. How do you express and define your gender?

Like how do I think of being a girl? I guess just like always… sort of second guessing yourself and like being like, thinking about how things will play out before you actually do them because I feel like… a lot of times like as a… as a female, like we’re always like being surveilled like by society and by like… everyone else. Um, and like it doesn’t matter which direction you go with anything you do, like everything will probably end up being like… blown out of proportion or at least like in a way that it’s like kind of like…ahh… I don’t know…

So it’s kind of like you feel like there… there’s hyperattention on you and you feel like there’s not really a way to win in the choices that you make because there are a lot of contradictory expectations? Am I getting that right?

Yes.

Okay. Just wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly (both laugh).

Um… oh god, what’s next question… Um, so is there anything, um, about, uh, your experience with mental illness that has affected the way that you experienced intimacy, whether that’s um, platonic or emotional or physical and that can be like…. like any form of intimacy that has been affected by… by your experience?

I definitely feel like any sort of romantic intimacy and things like that. Um, especially because like… I feel safer when I like distance myself. And so like, um, and also like I kind of want to protect people from like… like my family’s like problems and whatever. So I’ve always sort of put a wall like um, and sort of just like… blamed myself for it. I don’t know, I guess just like justify… or like attributing my lack of like any romantic entanglements to like my inherent, like shittiness or something (Grace laughs).

Oh, no, no, no inherent shittiness.

That’s how I would put it.

No. Um, okay. What about on the… on the gender side, like your experience with gender and kind of these things that you described as part of your gender experience, have those affected intimacy in any way for you?

Like have my mental health…?

Your experience with gender has that… uh, so you… you… the feeling of… of being surveyed and the feeling of kind of like not being able to make the correct choice. Um, which are the two things that you kind of described in your experience of gender um, has that affected intimacy for you in any way? It’s okay if no, that’s totally fine.

I don’t know how to answer this question. Um, do you mean like any type of intimacy or like specific…

Yeah, any type of intimacy.

Um, I would say so, yeah. Because like, it basically affects like anything that I do, so I feel like it applies to like.. whatever.

Okay, fair enough. So you feel very guided by that… these sorts of…

It sort of pervades. It’s very pervasive.

Okay. Um, so… so I guess, um… my brain’s kind of shorting out today (Grace laughs). So in terms of interactions between gender and mental illness, it seems like kind of the state that your gender has put you in is a very anxious one. Would… is that like… yes?

Yes.

Okay. Um, are there any other sorts of interactions that you would point to? (Long pause)

What do you mean?

Um, I can give you examples….

Yes, let’s do that

(Cassandra laughs) So there are a lot of different ways in which gender and mental illness can interact. So one of which is like… the way that women’s mental illness is specifically treated, um, as kind of being a little bit… distinct from like the platonic form of mental illness. Um, so that’s one… one way. There’s also like a… like… like the part that you touched on was like the expectations of women and how that kind of affects mental illness. Another one is like how… gendered trauma, which doesn’t like… you have trauma that it doesn’t necessarily sound gendered, although you can… you can correct me on that, but how that plays into mental illness. Um, so those are some examples of things that people might… might talk about, but there are obviously a lot of other places for intersection. Um, is that helpful?

Yeah I think that like… maybe the whole trauma thing is gendered. Um, like if I think of like… myself, like I feel like… the trauma somehow like more legitimate. Like if you experience trauma as a man somehow that trauma would hurt you more than if you were a woman because like… I feel like women are like used to like experiencing traumatic things more so it’s like expected that you should… you should just really get over it.

Okay. So you feel like you’ve kind of, because of gendered expectations has come, you kind of develop more resilience and so you’re better equipped to deal with this?

Yes.

Okay. That’s an interesting perspective

Yay! And also like… I guess it has to do with how like um, like a lot of like… men don’t really like… if they get raped for instance, like they… they’ll, they won’t report it as much and like things like that because they’re taught that like… it’s like a more of like a woman… women thing to do.

Yeah. So you felt there were more resources for you in dealing with…?

Yeah.

And then more… it was more socially acceptable for you to seek help?

Yeah.

Um, are there any other identities…you talked a little bit about coming from an Asian American family, so if you want to talk more about that. Um, but any other identities of yours that you feel have… have interacted with mental illness or a gender in your life?

Um, I guess just going back to the Asian American thing, it was just like… really difficult for me to like… be in those like group meetings, like with my parents and the doctors because my mom kept on trying to like… enforce like her idea of like Eastern philosophy or whatever onto the doctors. And so she made the meetings more of like a battle of like east and western, like treatment or something. And whereas I was just there, I was just like, I just want to get out of the hospital. So she kinda just like um, like… over exaggerated things and it just like made me feel worse because she was trying to use me to like… get to this larger triumph sort of thing. And so that was really strange. Um, and also I know that like my oldest sister, like she definitely like… has like an illness according to like every single person that I’ve encountered recently. Um, but like it’s just a matter of… It’s also like a struggle to get her to understand that she needs help because like… she thinks that she’s totally fine, but she’s not. And I don’t know, we might’ve… I might’ve gotten off topic.

Also, I feel like good therapists are hard to come by especially if you aren’t able to pay $200 for a 45 minute session, for instance. I just feel like therapy is inaccessible and that already makes it easier for people to give up even though they shouldn’t.

That’s fine. This interview is for you to talk as much as you want about these topics.

Okay. Yeah.

Um, so this question is a little bit redundant, but it’s kind of just there… in case the asking it kind of sparks any… any things for you. So the question is there, is there anything about mental illness or gender that you have struggled with the most? But if you… if you don’t have an answer, that’s okay.

Can you ask it again? Hold on.

Um, it was a two part question because one side is the… is the being a woman and the other part is mental illness, so… but is there anything about these two experiences separately that you have struggled with the most?

I don’t know (Grace laughs).

That’s totally okay.

I’m sorry.

Do not worry. That is fine. Is there anything that you want to talk about that you haven’t really gotten a chance to within these questions?

Um, I don’t… I think I got to everything that I wanted to say

Yeah. Um, so… so you’ve sat with me and you… you… you’ve talked to me about hard things. So I want to give you the chance to ask me any questions if you want to. Um, so whether you want to turn these questions background on me or whether you want to me about the project, just like I want to give you the chance to turn this more of a conversation than like a me interrogating you.

Oh yeah. I was just wondering like how many people you’re interviewing or like how big your exhibit supposed to be or whatever.

Yeah. So I haven’t counted the list, but I think it’s somewhere around 50 people.

Oh my God (Cassandra laughs). That’s way more than I imagined. That’s really cool.

I don’t know. I mean like… I obviously asked the people that I’m friends with who fall into these identity categories. I was like, hey, would you be comfortable being interviewed for this? Um, but I also just put out a call on facebook that was like, hey, does anyone want to do this? And I had a lot of people that I have varying levels of familiarity with reach out to me, which is very cool. Um, so like I’m interviewing some of my best friends and I’m interviewing people that I’ve barely talked to and like very wide range of gender and experience and it’s just, yeah, it’s very cool.

Damn okay. Thanks for like dealing with my lack of efficient communication because this actually came up like earlier in the semester because like I was taking tutorial on… do you know what that is? It’s like when you have a two person class with a professor and the two students basically facilitate the conversation. And so like I forced myself to take it because I like know that I suck at talking mostly because I avoid it and I have trouble even recognizing my own ideas. And so like this one session it got really bad because… I’m like I’m not used to like having an opinion really sort of because it kind of goes into the whole trauma thing but like um… and I kind of got low key yelled at by the professor and then we talked about it afterwards and that’s when I told her about like my diagnosis and why like I’m like that. And that’s also like one of the things I’ve been struggling with, I guess… just like feeling like I’m allowed to know what I think or like because a lot of the times like I sort of ignore like what’s going on inside and kind of just go based off of like external stimulation sources.

Okay. So trying to like return the communication with yourself?

Yeah. Yeah. That’s like… I would say my main struggle.

I mean I think specifically for this like… you got diagnosed within the past year. Um, so like this is still something that’s very much in progress for you. I mean technically it is in progress for everyone because it’s… a chronic… illness (both laugh). Like um, I’m interviewing a bunch of college students who… like some of them got diagnosed in like early high school. So we’ve had a while to like… think about this and kind of establish and narrative for ourselves. Like I’ve been building up a story about my mental illness and kind of like altering it to be fair. But I’ve been telling and thinking of the story of my mental illness since I was like 17. So like I’ve had a while to kind of establish this and kind of figuring out what out…. what my answers to this would be. Whereas I think like this is still something that’s very much in progress for you. And so like if you don’t have answers that’s totally okay. Like that is understandable. Do not worry.