Transcript 14- Larry

These transcripts deal with themes of mental illness and trauma

This conversation took place over skype. Larry and Cassandra met when Larry directed Cassandra in a play, two years prior.

So please state your name, your age, your gender identity and presentation.

Sure. Uh, that last one’s complicated.

Yeah, yeah (Cassandra laughs).

Okay. So my name is Larry Eames or Lawrence Oliver Eames Junior. Um, I publish under L.E. Eames  so that’s sort of my academic identity. Um, I am 23. I use she/her and he/him pronouns and I identify as agender. My gender presentation is definitely more femme than I would like, but I also have like hella hips and tits…

So it’s hard to…

Yeah, it’s like I… I did some thinking about it and I was like, yeah, like I’m never going to be skinny enough to actually be androgynous. And that’s fucked up that we think of androgyny in that way. But also like I’m mad at myself because I… I just cannot look the way I want to look. Um, cause like, I mean, I joke right that I look forward to the singularity when I can upload my consciousness to like just be an orb (Cassandra laughs)

Agender orb

(inaudible) doesn’t have gender and neither do I.

What… um…what are the things that they do help you feel more androgynous despite this… this complication that you run into?

Weird colored lipstick.

Weird colored lipstick. Okay.

Um, it’s like, that’s weird, right? But I think, and you know, this is… this is treading into also complicated waters. Um, but femmeness and like curves and like being like an afab person like that so gets coded as like existing for the consumption of men. And like obviously queer femme identities exist like…. plenty of like… nblw and wlw folks are femme and they do that in a way that doesn’t exist for men. But like, I think there’s something about like weird colored lipstick that like really very clearly flags, like, “I am not here for men. Like I am not here…” And I’m also like, “I’m not here for women. Like I’m not here to be consumed in a gendered way. So like fuck you, my lips are teal”. (Both laughs)

Yup. That makes sense. I like it.

Yeah, it’s… it’s… it’s an anti- consumptive and like things that also like… so I have a denim jacket that has these like really great shoulder pads. That makes me feel like… gender good things cause it’s like that. And it there’s like also like a level of like anachronism that I think that makes me feel good in my gender. Like corsets…Like I don’t know why that… cause that like accentuates the curves that like make it so that I can never look androgynous. But there’s like a level of anachronism there that I think like…. cause it’s like right shoulder pads are really eighties cosets are really like 1880s and like that makes me feel good. (Larry laughs) Um, I had a really good conversation while I was closing up the other day and someone  asks me, “hey, so like what pronouns do you use?” And I was like, “yeah, you know, I use she/her and he/him pronouns” and she was like…. cause I asked her afterwards also, um, we, most of us have our pronouns on our badges but it’s in a really small font.

Oh, good, great (said jokingly)

Yeah. I… you know, if you’re like talking to someone like… two to three feet away, it’s like okay, but if you’re like on the other side of a hallway because you need to be looking in different places to like close, like you can’t… I can barely see her name. Um, and because she made the comment was like, “yeah, you know, you like you referred to yourself the other day was like a sleepy boy and I didn’t know if you meant like boy or boi”. And to which I responded like to be fair, “the answer to that question is yes”.

Just both (both laugh)

The answer to that question is both. And she laughed and she’s like, “yeah, y’know. I was like, cause you know your name is Larry and you were weird lipstick. And so…  about gender, I was like, (makes questioning sound) I was like, “yes, that is my gender”. (Larry laughs)

Your name is Larry and you wear weird lipstick (Cassandra laughs)

Yeah. So like that made me feel really good about my gender. Another thing that I was like navigating when I came out was like going by Larry. And initially I didn’t use “he” pronouns also. Um, I was… my name is Larry and I use “she” pronouns. And like that level of like disconnect was like… that was sort of part of what I was trying to construct in terms of my gender. Um… I… for the first time ever in my life, like I went to… I went to a theater of the oppressed workshop and one of the people that I was working with who’s just like a Hyde Park or community member, um, just kept using “he” pronouns for me because she kept forgetting that… that… that like, cause I apparently I like it came off as really androgynous and like masculine in that day. And so like I will never get rid of the sweater I was wearing on that day. Like that sweater will stay with me forever. And that sweater is a good gender sweater apparently. (Cassandra laughs) And so that’s when I started, that’s when I added in he/him pronouns. And it’s like, I really like, I kind of do expect people to use both. Yeah. That got really rambley and away from the question of like, what do I wear and look like and do to make myself feel good about my gender. Those are all I think answers to that question.

Yeah. These are all good answers. It’s interesting that I’ve… I’ve heard, um, throughout these interviews… because I have a lot of like not cis people I’ve been interviewing and people have used the terms “good body days” and “bad body days” and “good gender days” and “bad gender days”

It’s just so real

Yeah. Which is like, it gets complicated, but it’s just like a shorthand for how they’re like feeling on any given day to day basis.

Yeah. Yeah. And like for me, part of the good body/bad body days are also wrapped up in… not dysphoria but dysmorphia. Um, because like I did have an eating disorder, um, and I still suffer from disordered eating, not like a full eating disorder, but like I’m still not great about food. Yeah. Um, and being bigger, um….

And you have so many complicated food things that that gets like… difficult I’d imagine.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For the sake of the rest of the interview record, those complicated food things mean I, uh… because I have polycystic ovary syndrome and that makes me like hella predisposed to be diabetic, I eat a low glycemic index diet, which is to say that I don’t eat dairy grains, soy or legumes. That’s… I’m just making sure that’s written down for ya later.

Yeah.

There you go. You can write that shit down. (both laughing)

Um, so we’re gonna… this is… this is like… I have these… this set of questions, but then I tend to be like, oh, let’s follow that up for a while. And then it’s like…

I mean that’s good qualitative research practice.

I think because I… it’s really important to be flexible because everyone’s bringing like very, very different things to these interviews.

It’s like literally something we talked about in my qualitative research methods class. So like thumbs up. That’s a thing real researchers do. Congrats

Amazing. Am I a real researcher? Is that what that means? (both laugh)

Damn Straight. You are… you exist in the information ecosystem but I’m not going to turn this into an information literacy session (both laugh).

Um, so the next question is have you been officially diagnosed with mental illness and if so with what?

Sure have! (both laugh) I have been diagnosed with anxiety and depression. Um, so your like… your classic mental illness mix.

Um, were you ever diagnosed with an eating disorder or was it kinda like something that went undiagnosed?

Yes and no. Um, so I definitely… I don’t have like, “you were anorexic, you were bulimic” like I don’t have one of those. My high school therapist started sort of treading those waters. Um, like “hey, it sounds like you don’t have a healthy relationship with food and it sounds like you have disordered eating and like… the way that you have sort of ritualized your food intake sounds like an eating disorder” and it kind of stopped there because when I graduated high school. Yeah. That happens to me a lot with therapists is, I leave the place where the therapist is and that it takes me like two years to get a new therapist.

Are you… are you currently seeing one in Seattle or…?

Sure don’t! Cause I’m still in that two years it takes me to get a new therapist.

I see… well we’ll get there eventually (both laugh)

Yeah.

So what was… um, the experience of being diagnosed like for you?

Um…Huh… There’s sort of like a two prong answer to that because like the first time I was diagnosed, right, I was just in talk therapy. Um, cause my mother…. like my mother believes in therapy but she doesn’t believe in like… meds. Like she believes in antibiotics like I… but like your… your antidepressants, your antianxiety, she thinks that that’s kind of a “crutch” is the word that she’s used. Like when I told my parents that I got that, my mother’s response was that I can’t have anxiety because if I were actually mentally ill, I wouldn’t be able to leave the house. And it’s like, well, it’s a spectrum. Uh, so that’s incorrect. You know, there’s a spectrum of severity here. Um, and also like some days I can’t leave the house, so…

So right back atcha.

Those days are fewer. Um, now that I’m not at U Chicago, uh, but I still have them. Um, and that’s, you know, not great. Um, and then like sort of the second time I got diagnosed was… I had… I had just broken up with my… like not broken up, sort of the wrong word. Like my abusive relationship had just dissolved. And so I was sobbing in my therapist’s office and she was like, “hey, like, let’s take some deep breaths because you’re hyperventilating and like you’re doing bad”. And I couldn’t because my stomach extended too far if I took a deep breath. And I just like… that level of existing in space was like unacceptable to me in that moment. Um, and so she was like, “okay, I gonna cancel the next meeting and we’re going to walk to… to U Chicago mental health because you need to be on meds”. To which I responded, “no, I can’t do that. They’ll send me away” (both laugh). Which is why I wasn’t on meds until that point. Yeah. Real good, U Chicago, um, but I went and they didn’t send me away, which is nice. (both laugh) Sorry.

Uh, I feel like I have to explain this. Like every time I’m like talking about really heavy shit and I’m like, yeah, we’re just going to make everything into a joke. And it’s like, yes, that’s the only coping mechanism I have, is comedy. Um, like when I was assaulted last fall by… like a tinder date I was like, yeah, you know, like going to the doctor and was like, “hey, I need to like every STI panel and like, this is… this is what happened. (Larry laughs dramatically) I’m fine.” And they were like, “(Larry makes scared sound).” And I was like, “I know. I just turned that into a joke. I’m very much not fine. That’s why I turned it into a joke.” Um, but, uh, so they, they [my Chicago therapist] like got me to a person who put me on meds and that was like… I feel like that was like a second diagnosis and like all of a sudden I had something kind of active that I could do about it. And that helped. But also I’m not on meds anymore because I was too anxious to call a psychiatrist just when I moved to Seattle. So like maybe they weren’t working.

How’s the experience been going off the meds now?

Uh, so did it a year ago and I accidentally went cold Turkey. Off of Prozac and um, oh, what’s it called? The, uh… the happy skinny sexy pill. Begins with a B.

Happy skin sexy pill…

Skinny. The happy, skinny, sexy pill. (Cassandra’s cat climbs into her lap) Oh it’s Phia! Oh, what a beautiful girl.

She says “hello”

Hi Phia. Uh, um, it begins with a B…it’s uppers. They’re uppers… it’ll come to me… it’ll come to me.

Okay.

But yeah, it’s two… and it was on like levels of dosage where it’s like two pills that I should not have gone cold Turkey on. And yet! Um, it was fine actually. It went fine.

Okay. How are you… like, how in terms of mental state, how do you feel now as compared to when you were on them? Like do you think they were helping?

It was definitely addressing my depression. I don’t think it was addressing my anxiety, um, because I had a benzodiazepine to take if like anxiety happened and, and anxiety was sort of like consistently happening and it’s like still kind of consistently happening on a weekly basis. Um, like on Monday night I was like seized with this like absolute terror about existing in the world and like talking to people and like being around people, it’s like… it’s like solidly an “everybody hates me anxiety”. Um, and it’s like, you know… I don’t know if you know, but like I… cause I said, “you know, that feeling when” and I was talking somebody who doesn’t have anxiety and they were like, “no”. I was like, oh right. My experiences are not universal. Um, but it’s like when your rib cage like becomes fingers and just clutches in on you. I had one of those on Monday. I’m just like, oh God, can we not do this please? I would like to breathe.

What’s been… like very broad general question, like what… what’s been your experience with mental illness so far? Like what’s the trajectory that it’s taken? So that’s like… that’s like a little piece of it. Are there other pieces that you feel were very crucial to that?

In what… in what sense? I’m not sure I understand the question.

I think this question is generally for people to give like… as long or as short of like a summary of their kind of like mental illness story… like what their history is, like, how it started, like, um, how it tracks, like when symptoms first started manifesting like how it’s been for them, how it’s changed.

Sure, sure, sure. Thank you. Um, yeah, so I mean… I don’t… I don’t know if I know when symptoms started manifesting, because in a lot of ways I’m just like this. Like, sometimes I get these like flashbacks to childhood and I’m like, Oh God, how did it take me until 10th grade to get diagnosed with anxiety? Like Jesus Christ, I was a mess as a child. Um, like I’ve always kind of needed to know… I always needed scaffolding in my day. Like I’ve always kind of needed to know when things are going to happen so that I have like something to hang on to. Um, and that’s… that’s like a significant source of anxiety for me is when I don’t have anything to sort of hang on to in… to in my day. Um, if I have like too much sort of loosey goosey free time, I… I get really bad. Um, and I’ve sort of always been like that. I got like officially, “hey, you have general anxiety disorder” in 10th grade. Um, yeah. So that… that… that’s I guess like, a thing.

Um, and that’s sort of like… and I think I started realizing that I had symptoms, which is weird to say because like I guess like… like I had one of those, “oh not everybody is like this” experience probably in like seventh or eighth grade. Um, it’s that like that like your rib cage… like grasping in on you and squeezing… like that feeling. I sort of realized it was not like a normal reaction to… to… to breaking something or like that absolute like terror that.. that or like the grips in on you. Um, or the like… I think the other way I feel it is like somebody like sort of almost grabbing like the back of my head. Um, and it’s like, “you are now hyper focused on this and you cannot, you can’t leave it. And like the… the ride that you’re about to take in terms of like what horrible things like… pop into your head is like not something you can do anything about”.

(Piece omitted)

What that means is I don’t have a coping mechanism for like… so I mean, right, like there’s the like etch-a-sketch like no, no, go away. Head shake. Like I do that sometimes. Like, yes, I am an etch-a-sketch and that works (both laugh), it doesn’t work. I’m still kind of into scent, like that’s a… that’s an environmental control that I like to have over my space. I’ve shifted more to like burning incense now cause that’s not an open flame. Um, but yeah, like scent is a… is a… is a space making tool that I like to have.

But so that’s, so I guess that’s one piece of… of things. Um, I got diagnosed with anxiety and… in high school. I got diagnosed with depression in college. I didn’t come to U Chicago with depression. Uh, or if I did it was very minor. Um, I mean like my sleep cycle has never been good, but that was really my only depression symptom. That’s my current self improvement project is like getting myself on a regular sleep cycle. Um, so I’m… I’m waking up within 30 minutes of 7 every morning, no matter where I have to be.

That’s impressive.

Like even on weekends. Uh, it’s… it’s going pretty well, it is actually going pretty well. I need to be out of bed…. I have an 8:30 class on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Um, so I need to be out of bed a little bit before 7 to like get there on time. Um, that didn’t happen this morning. I still made it to class on time though, which I’m very proud of. Um, I didn’t do my eyebrows. That was what I had to sacrifice to…(Larry laughs) It’s what I had to sacrifice to be on time for class. Um, but I… so I try… I try to go to bed at 11 at the latest and I wake up around 7 and that’s… I’ve like kind of successfully enforced that on myself this quarter which I’m kind of proud of.

And that’s like mental health thing for you to create more structure?

Yeah, actually like… it’s been good. Um, you know, I know that’s something they say, like, “you got to drink water andlike sleep regularly” and it’s like, “haha, sounds neurotypical Karen”. But like actually enforcing a regular sleep cycle on myself has helped. So like fine. Karen was right about something.

(Cassandra laughs) Goddamn Karen.

Yeah. I was trying to think if there was something else to like…

I mean I can, you can tell me if like… if something pops up more and we can move on through the other questions and… a lot of the questions overlap in specific ways. So it’s like… because the next one is like what relationship do you have with your mental illness and what things change it? So like… like that is….

The relationship I have with my mental illness is that I refer to it as the Serotonin Gremlin (Cassandra laughs) and I conceptualize self care as like taking different bats and hitting it out of my head like a rodent out of my attic (both laughing). That’s my relationship to my mental health. It’s like, “get! Get! Get! Get out!” I always like imagine it’s like… you know those little pencil eraser gremlins that are like the big googly eyes and they’re like purple and they have a little wavy arms? I imagine one of those like (Makes hissing sound). Like, get out! Out! That’s what self care is. (both laugh)

Good, very good. Have you always conceptualizes it as such or is that more recent thing?

Uh, the like… this is like the most millennial garbage thing I’m going to say today probably. I saw a Tumblr post (Cassandra laughs) that was like, “yeah, sometimes when my intrusive thoughts get really bad, I call them Steve and treat them like a mansplainer”. And I was like, oh, clever, clever. So I tried to like, “shut up Steve” as like a way to… but like anthropomorphizing it in that way, like didn’t ever really make an impact. Um, but like making it into this like sort of silly looking thing. Cause like those… those are eraser guys…they’re not a erasers.. like pencil toppers… those guys are dumb looking. Why did we have those in the 90s? They’re just like a little gummy like Gremlin looking dudes. They’re silly looking. Um, and as I previously stated, um, comedy is a significant coping mechanism for like my anxiety and my depression. Um, and like making things into jokes and making it funny is… it helps. Um, and I dunno, I… I think spatializing the body as like… the attic is up here and sometimes weird shit gets into your attic. You just have to take a bat and make it leave. (both laugh)

Yeah. I like it. I like that a lot.

Yeah. It’s like… sometimes weird shit happens to houses. Like sort of conceptualizing myself that way. I don’t know. It makes me feel more present and more stable because like I’m… I don’t know, I’m like constantly fighting the like… impulse to just sort of like take my consciousness and step like… a foot to the left. Sort of like, leave all of this on autopilot. Um, which is bad. You don’t want to do that. Um, dissociating is not… just the need to be constantly, like elsewhere, that’s not a great way to go about your day. So like… being like sort of like living in the space, it’s like… it sort of, I think it helps me be grounded in a way. And also I can make it silly. Like… my mental illness are these little pencil topper gremlins. And if you hit them enough, they stop and like sometimes you hit them by drinking water. Sometimes you hit them by like following your schedule. Sometimes you hit them by eating vegetables.

How do you… do you have any sort of thing like that for your PCOS?

I don’t… um, I am extraordinarily disconnected from that, like in ways I shouldn’t be. Um, like I… I sort of patched the problem by getting an… a hormonal IUD. Um, and I think a lot of the things that I do to sort of conceptualize that are patches, like… I can’t grow a good beard. Wish I could good beard. Um, my dad had a great facial hair, like when he grew up, he didn’t like… his beard like still grows in really well, although it’s like Gandalf white now it’s… it is white. Um, cause he used to be a ginger. Like I get my hair from my dad, uh, just like thick, curly, like mess of… of shit…that’s all Scott. Um, and his big… I’m like so jealous of like the beard he could grow. Uh, but like, because I have PCOS like I do grow facial hair and like I do have to shave like twice a week. I don’t have to… you know, I think that’s important to say. It’s like, right. I am expected to because I presented the world as like, a female person even though I’m not. Um, and the expectation there is that you shave. Um, I sort of emotionally have to shave because my facial hair isn’t good. If I had good facial hair, I wouldn’t. Um, like if I can grow a real beard, like, oh god, let me be the fantasy dwarf of my dreams (Cassandra laughs), but I can’t, so I have to like… and that’s like, you know, sort of like you gotta… you gotta take care of the lawn, like you’ve got to take care of the lawn, it grows, be you still gotta cut it, like you gotta take care of the lawn. Um, and it… and, but like the thing is, right, like my…my house metaphor, I feel like it breaks down sort of at the waist. Um, cause I don’t know how to conceptualize my… my reproductive system into that. I don’t… and that’s… it’s like a huge stressor for me because like I want kids really badly, but I don’t know if I can.

Does PCOS interact with your ability to have children?

Sure does. Uh, um, infertility is a symptom. Um, because right, PCOS, you get these like cysts in your ovaries and your eggs don’t grow, right, is kind of what happens. And I might not be able to have kids even though I really want to. And like 5%, I think I’m going to be a good parent and I want to dunk on my mother by being like raising like really healthy, like emotionally capable children (Larry laughs). It’s like, “fuck you (insert name of mother), I’m good at this”.

The ultimate revenge!

Yeah. The ultimate revenge: raising healthy, socially capable children, fuck you! Socially capable is a weird way of phrasing that. Like I don’t mean that in the sense of like… what I mean by that is like kids who are like in their own way… okay with the way they move in the world. So like I… I’m not like, “my kids must be neurotypical” like that’s not what I mean by socially capable. Like what I mean it’s like they feel good about how they move in the world. I don’t and I want that for my children. Um, but yeah, infertility is like a huge thing for PCOS folk. So yeah, there’s that. Um, but that’s like solidly a problem for future Larry.

Just put that over there for right now.

I’m not even dating anybody right now. Like my like… must have… must have children is like… “all right, calm the fuck down, ovaries”. Um, but like the like idea of sort of like living in a… in a… in a… in a space that is my body. Like I think that does help me deal with the like anxiety about things that I don’t have control over. Like I don’t… I don’t have control over the fact that my ovaries are pieces of shit. Like don’t have control over that. Like, I don’t have control over

the fact like I’m probably going to get like arthritis later in life (Larry laughs). Like based on my dad’s side of the family. Like, ooh, my joints are going to go to shit. One of them already has, but that’s from a workplace injury. I fell off a ladder and and on… on a set strike once and my right knee has just never been the same. It’s a workplace injury. It happens. Um, I mean it shouldn’t, but it does.(Both laugh) Occupational Health and safety is important and you should take care of that. However, sometimes shit does happen. Um, yeah. I don’t know if that answers your question or not.

Yeah, yeah, it did. Um, so what… you… you talked about like there’s specific things that trigger self harm impulses and you talked about how like… um, setting a regular sleep schedule can help. Like what yeah, what are the things that trigger the worsening of your mental health and what are the things that that help make it better?

Yeah. So I’m gonna set aside and geopolitics from this conversation. I’m going to bracket that off, um, because I am nonbinary and all of the like gender news out of this administration is bad for my mental health. Like that just… so I’m going to bracket that cause I don’t think that’s useful.

I mean everything’s useful.

Okay. I guess that’s fair. Um, every time the current president tells us that transgender people don’t exist, my depression gets worse. (Cassandra sighs in frustration)

Yep.

Um, so there’s that. Um, eating: bad. um…essential flesh vessel maintenance but it’s bad sometimes for my mental health, like I… and I mean this is like a… solidly a childhood trauma thing. Um, and not like… my mother made it very clear to me from a young age that one of the worst things I could be is fat. Um, she’s of the opinion… So I’m, I’m 5’ 1”– we’ll round up here. I’m 5’1”.  She’s of the opinion that the most I should weigh is 110 pounds because you get a hundred pounds when you get to five feet and then you get five pounds for every inch after that, like maybe five more for flexibility. And I’m like, “fucking Christ (insert name of mother)”.

Um, and like for reference, I weigh 190 pounds. Like at my skinniest, when I was eating…. a handful of carrots for lunch and then cold cuts for dinner, maybe a banana um, in like middle school, I got myself down to 128. Like when… so  when I was in like middle and high school, I played a sport every quarter because I went to prep school and they were like, to have teams, all of you need to be on sports. And that’s what we did. We didn’t have gym. Like we had like enforced sport after school. And, um… then I was floating right around 145, 150. I was an athlete, like I was in great shape. She still thought I needed to lose like 15 pounds. Um, she’s also of the opinion that I shouldn’t eat more than a thousand calories in a day. Like these are all things that my mother has enforced on me over the course of my life. Like she for a while would, if we went out to dinner, she would tell me when I was done eating and like if we were out with another person, like… and this is.. this is bad. I feel like this is a bad thing that I did. But I also don’t think it is like, I would use the fact that like, oh, social niceties. Like she can’t yell at me in front of this other person who is a friend of hers for eating because that makes her look bad. So I would keep eating even after she said like, “don’t you think you’re done now?” And like, I would definitely like, “no”. Afterwards she would do, “like you made a scene in the restaurant and that’s unacceptable and like, blah, blah, blah”. I’m like… there’s part of me also thinks like, “yeah, she’s right. I made a scene and that was bad and this is on me. I shouldn’t have kept eating”, but also like… I need to eat. I need to eat to live (Larry laughs). Um, so eating is bad. Eating is complicated. That makes my… like having to eat makes me feel bad.

Um, because like one of the other sort of really like consistent intrusive thoughts that I’ve had over… probably since like sixth grade is quote unquote, “hunger is fat leaving the body” which isn’t metabolically true. But like… I… whenever I get hungry, I’m like, “no, push that off as long as you can because hunger is fat leaving the body” and like, no, no. That’s not how any of this works.

But it’s… it’s hard to shake that… that feeling.

It’s hard to shake that feeling. Um, it’s so and like that’s also… yeah… it’s bad… it’s bad. Um, uh, let me… let’s make this positive. What makes me feel good about my mental health? Um, making things like… being like creative. So like knitting, really good, cooking: really good. Cause like, then there’s a thing that I’ve done, um, like academic writing, like churning out content that relates to like, issues in the world– that makes me feel good. Cause like I’ve done a thing.

Color coding. I know it’s ridiculous but like that… that’s like gives me like a really like visual understanding of what’s going on in my life. Like… let me… let me show you this. And so I go through these notebooks as I’m sure you know, I’m sure you’ve seen my notebooks (Larry is holding up a color coded notebook), but I also… I tipped in an additional ribbon. I have one. So like I added this myself. Um, this marks where I am in my notes, this marks my week page.

And then like that’s what my week looks like.

So colorful.

Yeah. And that makes me feel good. There’s a bunch of like colors and it’s bright and it’s cheerful and it like really like… clearly and visually gives me like a scaffold for my week. And that makes me feel good. Um… professors giving me nice comments on my papers makes me feel, um… I seek validation from adults, ahhh.

(piece omitted)

So…. on the topic of other people entering this space of your… of your mental wellbeing, how much do those around you know about your mental illness and how do you talk to them about it?

I was actually having this conversation this morning because I’d mentioned that I was doing an interview about mental illness and gender with a friend of mine, um, for the… for your BA um, to one of the people in my group projects. I have one extraordinary… there are like three things that I’m really always down to answer respectful questions about. And it’s my gender identity, my mental health, and my chronic illness. Like if you need somebody to talk to about that shit, like I am here to do that. Because, you know, I dunno, maybe this is to my detriment, but I… am, I think in a position to be open about that. I don’t know why I think that. Um, but I feel like I’m in a position to be open about my mental health and my chronic health and my gender mostly. Um, and because people aren’t in that position, I should be so, that they… like people who can’t be known that they’re not alone.

Um, so I’m actually like super open about my mental health. Um, I… I mean that said, you know, I’m not going into excruciating detail about like what it looks like when I have a panic attack. I’m not doing that cause that’s not… that’s not helpful, I think. Um, I’m not going to talk about the, like the snot, just like dripping down my face and the sobbing and hyperventilating and the like… that, I’m not going to talk about that. Um, but like parts that I do talk about are like, “yes, I feel this way. Sometimes when I am engaging with the fact that I need to eat, I feel like my body is trying to crush me. And like that’s how that feels. And like I get these awful intrusive thoughts and like sometimes I think about suicide but like not in an active way in a like, “sure would be nice if this bus happened to hit me” not in a, like, “I’m going to step in front of the bus” and like it sucks and it’s bad. And like some of the things that I do to mitigate that are like I try to eat vegetables and like drink water and like sometimes I try to exercise, but I was also like forced to go to the gym as a kid so that I wouldn’t be fat and so being in gyms makes me feel bad. Afterwards I feel good, but while I’m there I feel bad”.

Um, and so like, I dunno, I don’t know if it helps. I don’t know if that’s helpful for people that I am open about that stuff but I… I am, I really am and like I am… I’m always happy to answer a respectful questions about any of those three things and I’ve gone to… I think I’ve gotten especially that way about my gender this year because all of a sudden I am the only non binary person a lot of people have ever met like…. just coming, like being put in a new cohort. Like I was definitely a bunch of… for a bunch of people in my  cohort, the only non binary person they had ever met or who was out and like… I’m out, I’m like I’m down to be like, “hi. Yes I’m nonbinary. like, gender is fake talk to me about that”.

How much do you talk to people for your own… like when you’re having a really bad mental health day and like you need like maybe there’s something you need from an interaction or maybe there’s something like that you you’re needing from other people or you need to communicate. Like, how do you talk about that when it’s not just for their benefit?

I have two people to whom I talk about that and it’s like the… the…. the conversation goes like this: “Hey, do you have the energy for me to be having a bad mental health day at you? Yes or no? If yes, then the next question is I need this specific thing from you and it usually involves like holding me accountable to doing things that are important to my continued existence.”

Emma* described a conversation between you and her where she did that to you.

Yeah, she is one of those people (both laugh).

I really kind of want to footnote these transcripts and be like…when someone references someone else that I’ve interviewed, be like, “go look at this” because I really like the communities that have slowly been set up in these interviews

Yeah, no, I will regularly text her and be like, “Hey, I’m having a bad mental health day. Can you make sure I eat my telling me it’s okay for me to eat? Like, can you do that? And like please?” um, the other person I talked to you as a friend of mine from high school actually who is also nonbinary. Lol. I went to an all girls school and only one of my friends from that group as a girl. (both laugh)

Oh good

[The one girl] is also our only Hetero. So like, you know that, you know that like Internet dialogue that goes around, it’s like, “You know, like in movies people are like, there’s one gay friend among like a bunch of straights, but like really it’s like all of the gay friends come together. And then there’s [one hetero], who’s a good sport”. Yeah. That’s a conversation that I have with two people, uh…

Which is still two people. That’s like a good…

And I feel bad. Right. Cause like I also like could never expect either Emma or [High School Friend] to be my therapist because like that’s not what I… and I really try hard not to do. Like, “you’re my friend, you’re not my therapist”. And so I’m not going… to like dump a whole bunch of bullshit at their feet. I’m like, sometimes I will go to Emma to like, “Hey, I’m having a bad mental health day. I mean to like say some things out loud. Do you have the spoons to listen to that?” But like I really try hard not to do that because they’re my friends, not my therapists. Um, so there’s that

How much…how much do you feel that your mental illness colors your interactions with other people and that… that’s kind of like a two part question in terms of like how people treat you, but also like internally, how does it affect the way you interact with people?

I don’t know. I know.. I know how it internally colors and it’s like I am the John Mulaney bit like, “I need everyone to like me always. It’s like I’m running for mayor of nothing” (both laugh). Um, that bit is how I interacted with people.

Mayor of nothing.

Yeah. I am running for the mayor of nothing and every– I need everyone to like me all the time. Um, I don’t know if I know if it changes how people interact with me like… on their end uh, it’s a something I’m a little bit tracking in…. in my, um, and so I have this group projects that I’m doing right now in my intro to digital humanities class and I… my initial interaction with the the guys, cause it’s… it’s me and three undergraduate dudes. Yeah. It’s a time. Was…. was very much sort of like Larry versus the brogrammers. Um, but I had a come to Jesus with one of them where I was like, “Hey, do you think I’m incompetent or do you not trust me?” Straight up. I said that to him. Um, it was I think a good moment for him because he realized that he was coming off that way and he hadn’t realized that. He was like, “oh no, if you think that, does everybody I interact with think that?” And I think he’s actually like sort of moderated his behavior a little bit.

Wholesome interaction!

I know. Um, it was really good. Um, but I… so now that, uh, like intense Larry Eames project manager has like gone away, I can now be like Larry Eames mommager. It’s like achievement unlocked. Um, I can now momage versus manage. And we were talking about, we’re talking about stuff and I made like a, “and that’s the depression” (said in joking tone) and they were like, “I’m sorry. Wait, what?” And I’m like, “oh, yes, yes, I have that.” So that’s like something that has sort of tracking with them because like prior to that I had to be with, it was like, “no, we are like… I’m a manager, I’m in charge, I have all of my shit together always. Like everything is like… I’ve got it”. But now that momager has been unlocked, I like, I don’t need to be that kind of manager. And so I’ve been like a little bit more open with it on my mental health stuff and like this class is very badly organized. Um, the professor is just like not good at being organized and that drives me nuts. I need order. And like… I have had… I have had mild to moderate panic attacks about this class because I don’t feel like I have like a grasp on what’s happening. Like… things are happening and like information as being sort of added to my life. But like I don’t… don’t have like a good, like handhold on the progression of it and like, so I feel like it was class was happening to me and not something that I’m engaging with. And I don’t like, I don’t know whether I’m learning or not and that’s like stressing me out. Um, so I’ve had a couple of mild to moderate panic attacks and I said that in a group meeting the other day and they were like, “wait, you have that?” And I’m like, “yes, I do. I do have that.”

You have the… the anxieties? (said jokingly)

I do! I have anxieties, like it happens. So I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s changing how they interact with me. I really don’t. I like to think that it isn’t, but also like given the stigma about like mental health, like I have to imagine that it is somehow,

So still trying to figure that out.

Well, I’m tracking it in my life.

How do you interact with other people who deal with mental illness? So you said like part of it… part of it for you as answering questions and trying to make… make them feel a little bit less alone. Like are there other ways that interaction manifests?

I mean there’s the Emma conversations, um, that like, “hey, I’m having a bad mental health day. Help me with this. Like here’s an actionable thing that I needed assistance with”, um, there’s that. Cause Emma also deals with that obviously, like she came and was interviewed by you.

Was a great interview.

Yeah. And she said that afterwards. Um, yeah, we were talking, we were talking about, hey like, “what went on in your day?” because we like… do that because we’re friends (Larry laughs) and she’s like, “yeah, you know, I went to like Sarah’s interview and it was like a good interview, but it was like a lot” and I was like, “yeah, sounds like it”. Uh, that was all she said. I think probably because she knew that I was doing this later. But, uh, yeah. Uh, so there’s that kind of interaction…. Um, I think… I think that answers that question. I don’t think I have anything else to add on that.

Yeah, that’s fair. Um…. my cat’s sitting on my notes. Hold on. Sorry. Um…

Aww. She wants to contribute to scholarship

With her fur! So fluffy (both laugh). Um, so we’re going to shift gears a little bit. Um, so what has your experience been identifying… I’m putting like an asterix next to this because…. because gender is weird and I wouldn’t want to ascribe identified as femme to you because you don’t, but like… more specifically like when you were maybe more actively… or I guess maybe you just didn’t think about…(pauses and sighs in frustration with self). What was your experience being perceived as femme?

What is… what is your experience with like femmeness and femininity and like being identified as female, is that the question?

That is the question. Sorry, I was like… (Cassandra motions vaguely to imply spaciness)

No I get that. Um, so actually, uh, because I’m not out at home um, I still sort of regularly experience being identified as femme in a really active way. Rather, I am actively identified as female on a regular basis. Um, right, like I get called “young woman” and “daughter” and like those kinds of things because I’m not out at home. Um, my mother doesn’t understand gender spectrum. Uh, although we had a conversation the other day about (insert name of friend) actually and like, cause my mother like decided to Google (same name of friend). Um, cause…. well we were talking about her getting…  doing shows and like working in Seattle. And Mom was like, “I’m going to Google her”. And I’m like, “weird but okay”. Um, and she’s like, “oh, what’s does asexual mean?” Cause (same name of friend) has that on her homepage or whatever. And she’s like, “is that when you don’t have a gender?” Like… “no, that’s agender…. that’s me”. Didn’t say that out loud! but it was like that… was a weird conversation. Um… uh, where was I going with this? Oh right. Um, so I… and it, you know, it’s interesting because I do fairly actively resist femininity. And I guess I’ll go back to the… like I resist consumptive femininity. So I… I definitely like….so there’s two ways that I like to dress. Ideally. There is very sort of hard and boxy where it’s… it’s that like sort of hard… where it’s like, like it’s not quite butch cause I’m not quite butch. I’m probably somewhere in the like, futch category. Um, like, um… maybe in the immortal words of my father when I came out as bisexual, “there’s always been something kind of, well, you know, a little dykey” about me (both laugh). It was very sweet. Uh, my dad was like thoroughly unsurprised when I came out as queer and, uh, I have told you this story because it’s been good….

You might’ve.You can tell it again for the record.

Sure. Um, we like… his reaction was sort of like, “okay”. And just nodded and was unsurprised um, I was like, “you seem unsurprised”. He’s like, “yeah, I’ve kind of like known since high school”. And I was like, “oh, cool. I thought I did a pretty good job of performing heterosexuality. What tipped you off?” He was like, “I mean, yeah, but you know, I’m going to use the words that like we would have used in my day. I don’t know if that’s right or not…. so, you know, I don’t want you to be offended, but like, there’s always been something kind of, well, you know, little dykey about you”. Oh, good. Good.  (Both laugh) Yes, thank you. Goals. So you know, I’m not… not and have never been fully femme, but I’m also not like butch, sort of firmly in that futch category. I think. Um, and so, you know, I really like my look like, denim… my denim jacket with the shoulder pads like boxy. Um, I also really like being just swaddled in draped fabric (Cassandra laughs). Like is there a form underneath there? Who knows? (Larry laughs) And so I think in… in both cases what I have and I… and I, you know, I tried to do is when I was just… I was just gay- well bisexual, but like what I was just sort of out and it hadn’t really done the like critical thinking about my gender. Um… (Cassandra’s cat climbs onto screen) Awwww catto! I love her. (Cassandra holds her up the screen) Oh, thank you. Thank you for letting me see her. Oh, hi Phia! Hi! Hi beautiful girl! (Cassandra laughs) It’s coming from the laptop. I know you’re looking around. Oh, beautiful cat. All right, sorry about that. Back on topic. (Larry laughs). That can go in the transcript by the way. (Cassandra laughs)

I will 100% put it in the transcript.

That can be public (Larry laughs). Like, um, my love of your cat, you know, like can… can go on the Internet. I’m flagging that.

I think she’s a reoccurring character in these transcripts because some of them haven’t happened at my home and there’ll be like a little pause where she’ll just wander by and the person will be like, “Oh, cat!”

Good. Um, but uh… yeah, so that like… resisting of consumptive femininity has sort of always been part of my identity. Like I… I don’t want to be consumed. I mean like… how do I dress so that only the crows notice me? Like that’s what I want. Um…(both laughing)

That’s such a… if I like choose a tagline for each one of these interviews, like this is like this…”how do I dress so only the crows notice me?”

That’s… that’s me. That’s my gender.

So what are the… what are the like specific experiences that you’ve had that have kind of like, contributed to this negotiation of consumptive?

Um, so definitely navigating how I put on makeup cause for a really long time I didn’t because the like expectation of office femininity is that you put on makeup. Um, and you know, back to my dear sweet informal wife Emma who introduced me to Sephora, um like, I think… she I think helped a lot of how to make that for me. That wasn’t really a sentence. Emma helped me figure out how to make makeup a thing that I did for myself and not for other people. Um, like I really clearly remember the first time I went to visit her. Um, I was visiting (insert name of school and her parents kindly let me sleep on their couch at the time because their house was being renovated and they were like in an apartment at the time. Um, they let me sleep on the couch, which was so nice of them. Um, and uh… we went to the Sephora cause that’s what we do. And I found a lipstick called frostbite and it’s this like sparkly, like gunmetal blue kind of a situation. And I was like, “oh, I, you know, I could never do this. It’s like I can… you know, it’s… it’s… it’s a, it’s a weird, like I could never” and Emma really encouraged me and was like, “no, that looks really good on you. Like do it” and I did, it felt really good to put it on for me.

Um, notably it’s also was a fall of 2016, two months later I would come out as nonbinary. (Larry laughs) Uh, so I… I…I was doing a lot of gender thinking at the time. Um, because I was doing my thesis on gender and the Trinity, um, which is another like really complicated thing that we can get back into. Cause I’m like also sort of in the process right now of negotiating my relationship with religion, um, which is really complicated because my relationship with religion is sort of what got me into thinking about my gender. And so thinking about like how I am… I don’t feel good about Christianity. Um, and… and me and like my own like faith practice. Um, that’s complicated right now. I don’t have any good answers on that. And you know, if we… if you want, we can cycle back to that later.

But for now that, that was, uh… what was the original…oh negotiating femininity. That’s right. I’m sorry. And so like figuring out how to do makeup for myself, huge. Um, buying clothing for myself: also huge. And navigating that, that’s huge because I sort of… I get to put the clothes on me that I like and feel good in even if they don’t quote unquote look good. Um, because that… that would be something that, right? So my mother would buy clothes often order online and they would show up at the house and then we would do a fashion show. And really what that was was like A) does it fit? important clothing question. Um, does it fit and B) does it look good? And… a lot of times I would be answering that question with “it looks good because I feel good in it” and she would be answering that question with you, “it looks good because you look normatively feminine” and I don’t have to answer that question that way anymore. And that’s been, that’s been great.

That sounds like a really big step.

But I also still have to only pack clothing she thinks I look good in when I go home.

So it’s like what… what is the overlap here?

Yeah. And that’s… that’s a significant question. It’s like what is the overlap of like, makes me feel good and is mother approved? That’s complicated.

In terms of the experience of… being identified by other people as… as femme, what are the different ways that you’ve been treated? It’s like your… your mother, her expectations are one subset of that. Like what are… like just being… being someone who is perceived as femme existing in the world, and the world like, interacting with you on that basis?

Yeah….

And I guess how has it changed now that you’re… you’re perceived… like now that it’s thankfully like you’re now able to like step back a little bit from that perception and people are… are… are reconsidering that perception of you?

Um, you know, I don’t know because I still…I don’t think that people have really reconceived that perception of me. Um, I am out and proud– mostly– as nonbinary, but it’s hard because I get like… “one of the girls” a lot. And that doesn’t feel good. I don’t… and I think that’s like, I found a sort of like a questionnaire or the other day for like, “hey cis people, you should think about your gender”. Like, yes, cis people should think about that. “Here are some questions to get you started that aren’t dysphoria oriented”. It was like, “Ooh, tell me more”. Uh, and one of those questions was, “do you feel good or bad when you’re identified with a gendered thing? Follow up question. Is that a thing that you dislike for your friends who are cis?” So like if… a waiter is like, “all right ladies, let’s like get you seated”. Does that bother you from a personal perspective or from a Patriarchy perspective?

You know, for me it bothers me from a personal perspective because like I don’t like… and like (insert name of friend) and I went out to dinner the other night and like the host, a nice… nice femme person, not to like gender strangers too much, but like normatively femme presenting. Um, it was like, “all right ladies, let’s get you seated”. And I was like… felt bad. Um, but it doesn’t bother me that she does that generally. I mean like… don’t gender strangers on the whole is I think like a good policy, but like I know that what… what, what she’s doing and what really like hosts are doing in that setting is like making you feel welcome. It’s like, “you’re now a part of our like eating establishment. Like you’re a part of this group. Welcome. You’re here now”. And like that doesn’t… it doesn’t bother me.

Like catcalling bothers me regardless of your gender. Like don’t cat call people. That’s bad. Yeah. I don’t like it because it marks me as like femme presenting. I don’t like it for other people because it’s makes them look like… makes it an object in the eye of some man yelling some shit on the street like that.. that’s bad. So I… I think, and that’s what I think, uh…a useful thing because I get classed as like one of the girls a lot because… there’s very little you can do about D cup and larger tits like… Um, I have a great ass and hips, but they’re very femme. It’s like, not much I can do about it, you know? Um, so I think it’s… it’s complicated for me to answer that question because… that’s how… that’s how I look. Like I am always, I think going to be classed like… and even if I like paint my entire body in the agender flag, like, as fun as that would be… uh…

Art!

Art! Throwback to the time you painted me. That was fun. (both laugh)

Okay. So like without the… without the trying to spot a change, like I guess how like…. uh, like… objectively how people have treated you with having perceived you as femme that like you think is notably different from… how they treat people… they treat more mass human beings?

Oh! That question.

That question.

Like, so I’m in this group project with these three Undergrad dudes and the first day we all work as a group one of them would like check in with me, like, make sure I was following along with like the tech tutorial but didn’t do that to the other guys. I was like, oh, it feels bad, scoob.

And you’re a grad student!

I’m a grad student! So like what I bet is it’s like 70% tits, 30% “librarians don’t understand computers”. Maybe 75/25 but it’s solidly mostly the tits. Uh, so that happens.

So like not being treated as like intelligent or competent?

Yeah. It’s like a… it’s a knock against my competence. I am in a… like a woman dominated profession, which I think does help professionally. Generally in libraries, nobody’s going to assume I’m incompetent because I read as a woman. Generally. Some things, yes. But like… and you know, right, that like pink collar work thing. You definitely see men being promoted more than women in… in that path… (inaudible) it’s like you… so that happens, right? It’s not like librarianship is immune to patriarchy, but I think on the whole that like competence knock is… is mitigated by the fact that I am in a female dominated profession. But you know, shit like the brogrammers happens. That happens to me. Um, yeah. I think that’s the answer. Or that’s like… that’s what… that’s what’s coming to mind. The answer to that question.

Is there anything… So I… this… this question I always like… I’m never entirely sure whether to put in because…. it’s like everything we’ve already talked about. But the… the… the question is, is there anything about femmeness or mental illness that you have struggled most?

(Larry laughs) Sure. This has been: Larry Eames driving the struggle bus for… like…an hour.  Um, but fair I think… I think the thing that I struggle most with femmeness– and this is something that has not come up so, aha, um, is that… there are physical markers that preclude me from androgyny. I… I think that there’s sort of a growing like, “non-binary isn’t dressed like skinny white people” thing. Like I think that’s growing. And you know, as a white people, I think I’m already a little bit ahead, like privileged in that like, uh, it… it’s… it’s my nonbinaryness is not tied to colonialism, um, in any way, which is a privilege for sure.

But the…. like the sort of like “chubby and like fat non binary people exist” is I think a thing that’s percolating through non binary communities right now on the Internet. Um, and so that’s something that has… I have definitely struggled with like a lot is that… in many cases, my size and shape for precludes me from really being a nonbinary in an active, visible way. It doesn’t like internally preclude me from being nonbinary, but like in the world, I think it does in a lot of ways. So that… and so sometimes I… I am tempted to just be femme because it’s easier. It’s not easy, but it’s like easier than sort of actively asserting myself as nonbinary consistently. Um, but also that feels bad. It feels… it feels bad when I’ve read exclusively as… as… as a woman. I don’t feel good about that. Um, so that’s something that I struggle a lot with.

Um, the thing that I struggle with my mental health the most is perspective, like everything feels the worst always. And I feel really alone and isolated in that. But it’s also like I’m not, there are a lot of people that I can talk to, therapists and friends, you know, for different reasons about what’s going on with me and… and sort of asserting that I have needs, it’s hard for me, uh, which I think is probably tied up in being an afab person. Like you’re not supposed to assert that you have needs. You’re supposed to sort of exist for other people. And… which is part of the reason that I resist consumptiveness in my presentation.

Trying to like push back against that?

Yeah

That makes sense. It’s… it’s unfortunate, but it does make sense.

Yeah.

Um, but that’s going to go into the next question, which is like… the interaction between being femme perceived and being mentally ill. So like, not feeling like you can ask for help or like… say that you’re… you’re… you’re needing something right now. Are there other ways in which you feel like they interact?

There’s definitely the like.. hysterical woman trope. Like, I can’t get emotional about shit. Outside of… you know, cause I live alone. I love… I love living alone. Uh, I love having all the space myself. I love not having to wear pants if I don’t want to. Don’t worry, I’m presently wearing pants.

I mean like I would have supported it if you weren’t, just be like, cool. (Larry laughs)

I am presently wearing pants. I am… it’s like a little chilly in my apartment. Um, so I like… I want to wear pants so I’m wearing pants, but like later in the day I might not want to wear pants, so I won’t. (both laugh) Uh, so where was I going with that? Um… oh yes, yes. Um, and so, but like not being able to be emotional… like feeling like I’m not able to sort of be emotional because I won’t be taken seriously. That’s hard. That sucks. And that’s a patriarchy thing.

Emotions and rationality can’t possibly exist in the same sphere (said sarcastically)

No.

So what does this all… this was the question that people struggle with the most? So like what does femmeness mean to you? And I think specifically for you, it’s was like, that’s something that you kind of are eschewing a little bit or complicating. So like, how would you define it?

Um, hard… um, hard question. Femininity, I think is… it’s framed as that which masculinity isn’t. And masculinity is framed as that which femininity isn’t. Um, and usually because… patriarchy, femininity is defined in terms of care. So you care for yourself and you put on makeup, um, and you… you care for your appearance. And so you dress to be pretty, it’s like… there’s a lot of, you know… not to use a word that I’ve been using a lot–it’s a lot of consumptive is associated with femininity.

I don’t know if that’s how I define it. Um, I think that… I think that there is fruit in the care aspect of femininity. Um, so there’s an… an interpersonal ethic of care. So you should think about other people, is like… the sort of glib way of… of phrasing that aspect of femininity is like, “you should think about other people”. Masculinity exists in a way that you don’t have to think about other people. Femininity’s like, “no, no. You should think about other people. Like… think about how your actions impact people. Um, think about how your…like what you put out into the world impacts people”. Um, and I think that that is part of how I define femininity. I think that that care about what you put out into the world is part of it.

I don’t define masculinity against that though. It would be sort of… not caring what you put out into the world and… I don’t think that’s like a good thing on the whole, I think you should care about how what you put out into the world affects other people. But also, you know, that said, I… when I put myself together, there is a lot of like, “I’m doing this for me and not for other people”. And so there’s sort of a hybridizing of… self femininity, external masculinity in that ethic of care. Um, you know, and… you know, adjectives get bandied around like, femininity’s soft, masculinity’s is hard. I don’t think that’s true. I’m definitely going through all the things that I think I’ve been told about femininity and constructing a definition for you based on that. That’s what’s happening here.

Um, so like femininity is soft. Masculinity is hard. Like, okay, no, I don’t think that’s true. Femininity’s passive, masculinity’s is aggressive. Like, no, I don’t think that’s true. Um, I think there’s something in the soft and hard dichotomy that like… femininity is cozier because like, I… you know, I don’t disavow femininity or femmeness. What I disavow is being identified as a woman. Um, and you know, my like… soft orb version of presenting, that’s… I think that’s… that’s when I am at my most femme is like when I’m like swathed in like scarves and sweaters and like drapey things and like that sort of like coziness. That’s when I feel femme in a good way. Um, yeah…but you know, my… my… my good gender sweater is… is one of those things that makes me feel like sort of cozy. And that’s what… that’s the first I’ve ever been identified with like he/him pronouns and I was like, “oh, that feels good”. Um, so I’m never getting rid of that sweater. It’s great. It’s Chunky. It’s horrifying. I love it. It is ugly, but it’s soft and I love it. Like a good… like it’s a cable crop sweater.

Excellent.

It’s ugly. (Larry laughs) I love it. Yeah. Yeah. So I don’t know. I don’t know if I have a good definition of what femininity is. I mean, I think… I think so….I think that there’s like a kernel of truth in thinking about like care for what you put out into the world. Um, a little bit like sort of emotional energy or like how you present yourself. I think that’s like a, uh, an aspect of it. But, you know, I don’t, I don’t know. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean it’s… it’s a hard thing to like grapple with.

Yeah.

So… so this would be a time to talk about like religion or PCOS or being queer… like what other factors have contributed to your experience of femmeness or mental illness?

I’m going to start with PCOS cause that’s easy and I had a lot about it earlier in the conversation that I didn’t voice because we moved onto something else.  And it’s that I… so I remember when I first got my PCOS diagnosis, I was… I had like sort of just… internally figured out that I was bisexual and… because one of the things that PCOS does is, sort of, you don’t produce enough estrogen and you produce a little bit too much testosterone. And I remember thinking to myself the time, “oh, am I bi because my hormones make me think that I’m a man?”

Oof

Which is… that’s bad gender politics right there. To be fair, I was 14 and obviously that’s not the case. I’m… I’m bisexual because I’m bisexual. That is what it is. When I figured out my gender, I had another one of those like, “am I just this way because my hormones are this way” and I’m like, “Well, this one I might actually want to grapple with a little bit more” because yeah, my hormones are that way. Like that’s… like sex and gender aren’t the same but like the fact that I… that my hormones are not normatively womanish, like that might relate to my gender. Like, also lil baby queer Larry, like, “what if I’m… I’m like part man?” Because it’s like on the one hand, that’s bad gender politics and like that’s bad understanding of sexuality. On the other hand, while that’s not a great way of phrasing it, 14 year old Larry’s not wrong [in the implication that he/he’s not a woman]. (both laugh)

Just took a while to like really… understand the… the implications.

Yeah. Nine years, no, eight years. But yeah. So that’s something that I still sort of like think about.

Yeah. It’s like, I guess you’ll never really like… know for sure that’s like… but it’s like a interesting perspective on it.

Yeah. And let transition to the next part. My first reaction was, “yeah, I’m going to have a sit down with God when I’m dead and have some conversations about this” and I’m like, Oh God, religion. So I first did a critical thinking about my gender– gonna say this for the record cause I think you know this, but, um, I… had my first critical think about my gender when I was writing my bachelor’s thesis, which involved reading a theologian named Sarah Coakley who is a really, really good theologian. 10 out of 10 would recommend, um, she’s presently starting a systematic theology and she started her systematics with uh… wait real quick, let me find the exact title (Larry gets up and searches for a book) So Sarah Coakley,God’s Sexuality and the Self, an Essay on the Trinity. And it’s got a William Blake sketch on the front.

What a… what a great sketch. (Cassandra laughs)

Yeah. There’s like kind of a… (inaudible) sketch cause you’ve got the like the holy spirit sort of above and then it’s like God holding Jesus is like sort of what’s going on there. And the androgeny of the figures…is that because he didn’t get around to doing anything to identify them as gendered? Probably, but I like that they aren’t identifiable. And like… one of her big points is that, if we… humanity, and this is about to get real Christian here, I’m really sorry… if humanity is made in the image of God and God is… [Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity], three in one, one and three, then why do we have a gender binary? And I was like, “Oh shit, you’re right. Sarah”. (both laugh)

Yeah. Um, and I was like, “oh, I should like give a think about my gender” because you know, as a queer person, I have definitely eschewed some like… heterosexual womanhood. I should give a think to how I identify my gender. So I did.. and after giving it some good thinking, I came out as agender like, “nope, no gender for me. Thank you.”

“I will return this to the waiter. Sorry.”

“Yeah, I’m sorry. I… you know, I ordered it. I thought it was right. It just didn’t come out right Can we send this back to the kitchen? I don’t actually want gender”.(both laughing) I came out on election night 2016. (Cassandra laughs) I was very drunk and… here’s my thing right now– I don’t… I believe in God. I do. I don’t feel good about Christianity. I feel good about Brent House. Um…on UChicago campus, which I think made me think I felt good about Christianity but I don’t.

So it’s like… it’s like liking a TV show or like a piece of media and not liking the fandom?

Pare that down even a little bit. It’s like… I like this one character on the show, but the show is bad. The writers are bad. The like.. the… the network it’s on, it’s bad. And the fans are bad.

But that one character…(Cassandra laughs)

That one character that I don’t hate (Larry laughs). That’s a litte…like Brent house is the one character in Christianity that I like. So I low key ghosted on a church in Seattle, which I feel a little bad about. (both laugh) I went…. I… you know, because I went to church when I (inaudible) So I went to church. I… so I started going to church here and then I didn’t feel good about it. And then I was like… I was like, “oh, well maybe this is just like new place things. It’s… I’m gonna like really like get into it and be like…I served on the altar like I did at Brent House. That made me feel good there”. And then it doesn’t here. So I low key ghosted on church, um… (both laughs) add that to the immortal lines of this interview. I ghosted a church. Um, yeah, so I’m doing some thinking about that and I’ve been like leaning into my like… middle school witch phase again, that I think we’ve all had… um, genuinely like I do actually think everybody who’s like afab has a witch phase at some point because like… part…like the critical part of… of witchyness is control over things that you like, don’t have control over when you’re identified as female.

I… I don’t have it on right now, but I have a beanie that I’ve been wearing every single day that just is a black beanie that says, “witch”.

Yeah. Um, so I’ve been leaning back into that and that feels good. But I… fuck, I like rules and organized religion. I like having rules. I just… I also like fighting about rules and like… discussing that. I was like….one of the things that I’m missing with Christianity is like…the spirit of discussion…. and like we don’t have that. And I know what you’re thinking because every time I started saying this out loud, same thing occurs– person I’m talking to says, “well…”

Judaism

Judaism (said simultaneously)

That is exactly the thought that went through my brain.

I like rules, but I like being able to fight about them.(both laughing) Um, so the answer to that is yes, I am doing some research. We’ll see where that goes. But the thing is, I feel conflicted because without Christianity, I may not have done the gender thing that I needed to do. So like…yeah.

What are your… I guess like… you said you liked God and like how does the entire trinity fit into that in terms of the trinity being like a very Christian concept?

Uh, sure. It’s very Christian concept. I mean, so the doctrine of the trinity originated after Christ died. Um, because right, we’re trying to be… I say “we” meaning like the early church… is trying to figure out like what a Christian identity is and like what does that mean that like Christ isn’t just a messiah. Jesus is the son of God. Like, how do we conceptualize that? How do we conceptualize those words that Jesus used? And what that ends up being is sort of two different things. There’s like sort of two paths that takes, one of them is the very like… God poured out a little bit of godliness into Jesus and created The Son in a distinct moment in time. And so Jesus is God but like not as God as God. And that is ultimately what is called the Arian heresy. And since we’re referring to it as heresy, you may infer correctly that it is not the doctrine since it is… y’know…

A heresy

So the doctrine of the trinity that emerges in the Nicene creed—- Nicene creed is the first document that we have that lays out a like, “what is the trinity” is—- in response to Arius and it’s like, “okay, so what that dude is saying is definitely wrong. We put in writing to say what is wrong about that”. So it’s not… like, “affirmative, this is what the trinity is,” it’s a lot of what the trinity isn’t. And what it… what it says is that um, you know: we believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth of all that is seen and unseen. It goes on for a little bit. We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the father, God from God, light from light, true God from True God begotten, not made of one being with the father (or consubstantial with the Father if you’re Catholic.

Oh my God(Larry laughs)

It says more things about Jesus. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the father— and the son— that adding of “and the son” happened later and that’s why we have the Orthodox Church. So that bit right after the spirit proceeds from the father and the son, really important in church history. Um, proceeds from the father and son with the father and the son, The spirit is worshiped and glorified. The spirit is spoken through the prophets and it… you know, goes on a little bit.

So like what that document is… is saying is that um, the spirit is its own thing and it’s fully God. Jesus is its own thing and he’s fully God and God is God and God is fully God. And also they’re one. Don’t worry about it. That’s the creed. The full formal definition of the trinity is in the Athanasian creed. (Clattering as Larry rummages about his shelf) You made a mistake, Sarah (Cassandra laughs). Let me find it.. And like, some churches will read the Athanasian creed over the Nicene creed on Sunday. Which is a whole thing.

So I’m pulling this up because the language about it is kind of ridiculous. That’s… that’s why I’m doing this. I used to actually have it like a little bit memorized. I don’t anymore because you know, I don’t say it every… slash didn’t say it every Sunday. Like I did the Nicene creed. Like there’s a reason I can say the Nicene creed out. Oh, here it is. The… yeah. Because you know, we say Christians mostly say the Nicene creed every week.

Uh, okay. Uh, okay:

And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity,

    neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory

    equal, the Majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.

The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.

The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost

    incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.

And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and

    one incomprehensible.

So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty.

And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.

And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.

And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by

     himself to be both God and Lord,

So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.

The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.

The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten,

     but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three

     Holy Ghosts.

And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another;

But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.

That’s huge for the…that’s… that’s the point of the Athanasian creed. Because every time you come up with a metaphor for the trinity, you’re committing some heresy. Like there is no metaphor for the trinity that isn’t heretical in some way. Fun fact. The modern church worries less about heresy that it used to. But… but yeah. So that like division and oneness is real bound up in Christianity and that division but oneness is what got me thinking about my gender. And so, my relationship to Christianity, it’s complication. I don’t feel good about it. Um, I don’t feel like it… you know? Right, the Christian Church is not great at the moment. It’s not great for queer people. It’s not… I mean no organized religion is really good for queer people.

Except for the one where we all sacrifice the straights to the Almighty (said jokingly)

Shhhh don’t put that in the transcripts Sarah, you know better. (both laugh) Yeah. Like no organized religion is good for queer people. Like that’s just not… so I almost want to take that off the table as a reason I’m upset Christianity like… cause I’m not going to find like… the thing is is that every time I talk about my thesis, which is huge like it’s important to think about gender in your church, like the language you use to talk about God, because people will feel like they’re not included when you only use masculine language for God. It’s like how I don’t feel included when people only use feminine language for events. I don’t feel like I belong at women only events and like if you talk to the organizers, usually they’ll say something like, “oh well it’s women and non binary people. Obviously”. I’m like well it’s not obvious. All of your branding is like, “women only”. Like that’s not me. I’m not a woman. I don’t belong here.

Really just say, “not cis men”.

Yeah. And I was really careful to do that throughout my thesis is like, “we are… what we’re doing… we’re creating a binary here and it’s men and non men”. (Larry laughs) non-men doesn’t sound good. That’s not a great turn of phrase. Um, but it… it, you know, starts to gesture to what I mean by… when we only ever use like “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” and we use he/him pronouns for the Holy Spirit. Like that makes divinity a masculine thing in which women don’t exist. And that’s not true. You know? And so… it’s complicated. What I want… what I want is for us not to gender God. Cause like I don’t even think that’s true. Like saying that God has gender like, fuck man, what does that even mean? You know, I feel like I should for the record that, you know, even if I’m in Seattle, I’m not high right now, but like…

What does it mean?

What does it… and like it bothers me that like when I talk about that, the response is, “oh, that’s nice that you did that academic work, but it doesn’t like apply” like, no fuck you. It does apply. Like the thinking about shit applies. It matters that you… it matters whether or not you can argue about stuff. And so that’s why I’m looking for the religion with more rules and also more arguing.

Yeah, that’s hard.

It’s hard. The other thing about this… this is a thing that is not gonna… I’m not gonna be able to tie it back into my gender stuff. I mean it bothers me about Christianity is the prevailing, um, “well it’ll all get fixed when Jesus comes back”. Like, no, fuck you, we gotta fix it now.

How do you think that attitude… like do you think that attitude has related… like growing up in a community with the attitude… do you think that related in any way to like… attitudes towards mental illness in terms of like fixing… like “fixing yourself”? Like is there a… is there a link there, do you think?

That’s an interesting question.(Pause) Yeah, I do. And I have thought about it in terms of my chronic pain. I hadn’t thought about it in terms of my mental health, but so right, Christ dies on the cross, like that very much occurs. That’s sort of important (both laugh). That death on the cross for the redemption of humanity, like mild to moderately…

Only a key element

And what that means, I think, is that suffering gets divinized in Christianity. Um, where like, “oh you too are redeeming us through your… through your pain and don’t worry when you die and you’re taken up to heaven, to the Kingdom of God, everything will be fine. You’ll be whole and complete and fine” Fuck you. (Larry laughs) Fuck you. Like fuck that. Fuck that concept that my suffering is somehow a holy like… and that I shouldn’t try to fix it because of that, like, no, we should try to fix the world actively. Like you… fundamentally should leave the world a better place than you found it. Like god, you need to do that. It’s like a moral imperative I think that we have as people is that like… the world is shit and we collectively need to do something about it. Like… and you know, right, that’s huge. Right? So like what matters is what you can do on like your small scale to contribute to the world being better and like… Progressive Christians will be like, “oh yeah, that’s how we like…” I’m sorry, let me give it a voice (says the following in an imitating tone) “Um, yes. That’s how we build the Kingdom of God and prepare the way for Christ” and like, no, no, let’s just do it to be better for each other. Like for fuck’s sake, you gotta make the world a better place. And like if… if we’re not going to do it, who’s going to do it?

It’s a lot… a lot… a lot of pondering to happen there.

But yeah, Christian eschatology drives me up the wall and I think it does contribute to how health writ large is conceptualized in Christianity. I think that’s correct.

It’s a big… big thing to tackle.

Yeah, it is. It is. It is. It super is.

Slightly a divergence, but, um, the… the last question is like, how has being perceived as femme and those experiences… and how has been mentally ill– how have those two things affected intimacy in terms of like… you can interpret that however you feel comfortable answering, but like romantic, platonic, sexual, emotional, physical, like any form of intimacy.

Oh, okay. I got a funny story. So I got a text from a friend the other day that was like, “you’re the most like… of my friends, you are the most top of any of my friends that I know. How do I talk to girls?” And I’m like, “oh, honey, baby, I am a useless sub. Like, what do you mean you think I’m a dominant person? Like, what?” We talked about it a little bit and what I realized is that… I am in… presentation the least consumptively feminine of… of this person’s friends. So that was interesting. I’m going to put that out there. Um, but then the assumption was that because I’m not… strictly speaking femme was that I… I was… I was a top, which is not the case at all. I am not… no, I’ve tried… I’ve tried to top. Did not. (Larry laughs) So that was interesting. My like… sort of… sort of my… my lack of normative femininity identified me as a top– fucking funny. It’s fucking funny. That’s what it is. God. Um, so there’s that. Um, I mean I think there is definitely the assumption that I’m… I’m supposed to do a lot of the emotional labor of a relationship and it’s like… so one of my… did you ever meet (insert name of a friend)?

I don’t think so

Oh, he’s a good guy. Um, and like… I say that with the reverence of somebody who knows how rare that is. He is like consistently willing to like… do labor to make our friendship like… continue and like cares about my feelings and my emotions and like how I’m doing. Him and Emma, those are the two people were like consistently that level of nice and like invested in my life. Fuck. Like I… and I feel like I’m so expected to do that labor as like an afab person, but I can’t sometimes. Nobody can do that all the time. Um, so there’s that… that impacted intimacy.

It’s just tiring

It’s exhausting. I… I am a little bit more normatively feminine when I’m going to interviews. That’s true. I wear like normal colored lipstick (Cassandra laughs). I’m just thinking… I’m thinking about my life. I mean, I guess we should also probably tie it back to like… my relationship to sex is not good, that’s objectively true. That’s also part of it. Um, and we’ve talked about my gender and that, so I won’t retread. Yeah. I think those are my… I was still dying over the fact that somebody thought I was a top. Dying about that (both laugh)

It’s weird the assumptions that people make when they’re like, “you’re not the thing that I expected. So I think you’re now this instead”.

Yeah

Um, so do you have any… any things that like you… you want to say or want to talk about that you don’t feel were addressed in… in any of the questions?

Like I said, my PCOS stories, I was like the one thing that I was going to hang on to…that… that’s… that’s done that. Um, are there any threads that, like I said, I would follow up on and then have forgotten to?

I think we… I think we followed up on all of them.

Any other clarifying questions that you would want? Like other better things that I can say in like different words?

I think your words were very good

Oh, thank you

I support you in your words  

Thank you (Larry laughs)

Um, so I guess like… it’s very important to me that these are more like conversations than like interview interviews. So like… are there any questions that you have for me? And that can be like either about like this project or it can be like, if you want to hear my answer to any of these, I can also answer because like you’ve clearly like… put yourself in a situation where you were vulnerable to me and talks about like hard shit. And so like I wanna… I wanna make it clear, like I extend that same thing to the people who are doing this. I have been interviewed myself now. Um… I was going to type up my own answers and my friend was like, “no, no, no, you, you are going to get interviewed by me”. I was like, “okay”.

That’s a good call on his part.. It was very nice of him. I mean… I am a little bit curious about like what form you’re thinking this is going to take.

Yeah. So like this is… a singular element of the entire project. The entire project is like kind of a different, it’s… it’s like the Cave. I’m basically recreating the Cave as the basis for this and there’s gonna be a lot of different things in it. Um, a series of.. of… of different events. Um, and so this is going to be one element of like the permanent part of the installation. And so… I will in some way put like the portraits next to the transcripts. Um, I’m still figuring out how I want to… I… I’ve said before that I kind of like… wish I could like have them hanging from strings on the ceiling just like scattered around. I don’t know how it would accomplish that, but that is my ideal form of this.

Do you have a space yet or…?

Yeah, so… so technically all of the…all of the studio track seniors have that gallery in Logan. However, that was not enough space for me. So I… I’ve reserved room 017, so I will probably put some of the portraits in the gallery space as a way to be like, “oh, people come down to the… come down to the basement where we’ll talk about mental illness and femininity. Come into my lair”

(Larry laughs) Come to my witch lair. Cool. Sorry… I like immediately like the… like the lil production manager part of me like creeped up like, “oh, let me help you troubleshoot how to like install that?”

If you have thoughts, we can talk about it closer to the date. Um, mostly I’m just trying to like gather all the interviews right now and just like…

Sure, understandable.

*See Emma’s interview: https://whatsheswallowed.home.blog/2019/03/09/transcript-06-emma/