These transcripts deal with themes of mental illness and trauma
Cassandra interviewed Abigail over skype, each of them sitting in their respective rooms. They met at camp in middle school.
Okay, so please state your name, your age and your gender identity and presentation.
All right. My name is Abigail. Um… I go by Abby or Snail. I’m 20 and identify as a cis female and I’m bisexual. Is that in there?
It’s not but there are lots of spaces within the questions to like… talk about other identities so that probably will come up at some point. Um, so have you been officially diagnosed with a mental illness or multiple mental illnesses? And if so, with what?
Yes, I’ve been officially diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and like, sort of officially diagnosed with OCD. I don’t really know if that counts as official. It was like… a psychiatrist told me that she thought I had it.
Okay. What was the process of diagnosis like for you?
Um… well for generalized anxiety disorder… I’ve always been super anxious my entire life and my doctor just like always would be like, “why are you so anxious?” And then finally she was like, “I think you have an anxiety disorder.” It wasn’t really climactic, I wasn’t surprised.
So it’s kind of like, “Yep, that’s what that is.”
Yeah. And then I… then she put me on a couple different medications and they didn’t really work but I’m on Prozac and that works really well. Um, and then for obsessive compulsive disorder, that was kind of like, not really a diagnosis, I don’t know, but that was like, I went in because mostly because I’m such a hypochondriac, I’m just always thinking of ways I might die and she was like, you know, that’s a kind of obsessive compulsive disorder. Like you have the obsession of figuring out that you’re not dying and the compulsion of doing tons of research (Abigail laughs)
Would you agree with that assessment?
Yeah, I think so.
Are there any things that you… like any symptoms that you think you have that aren’t entirely covered by those two things?
I mean, I don’t know, like I… I have a lot of random symptoms but a lot of them just come from like, being really anxious.
Um… so, so you’re currently taking medication and going to therapy?
Well, I take medication
So psychiatry but not therapy?
That was just a one time I went to a psychiatrist.
Ok, um, so this is like a very broad, general question, but… what has been your personal history with mental illness? And so that’s kind of like a… from the point when symptoms started manifesting up til now, what were the major turning points? How has it changed? Like what have been the big things in your mind in this experience?
The first time I ever remember being really anxious or like being a hypochondriac was like, I remember I was like five and I told my mom that I thought I had breast cancer and she was like, “you’re five”
Oh no!(both laugh)
And like, I like would get like a bug bite and pick at it and I think it was skin cancer. But then like, kinda just like, throughout my entire life it’s just kinda been like that. But now I’m a pre-professional health major so it’s kind of like… it’s kind of a good thing because it’s like I know so much about health and medicine that I know that I’m probably not dying. But it’s also like, I know about so many things that could go wrong. It’s like, oh my God, what if I have that? But yeah, I don’t know, like… like it was kinda like… probably like worst mental illness time period was probably like, late middle school, early high school, but isn’t that everybody? Yeah, like pretty much once I got to college it was a lot better. Probably because I don’t live at home but…. (Abigail laughs)
Okay. So you think that was like a big thing, like you, like moving away from home kind of helped with the anxiety?
Yeah, definitely.
Where, where would you put yourself right now? Like is it manageable or…?
Well I’ve been on Prozac for like… five years? So that definitely like, I don’t know, I like to think that I’ve come a long way but it’s probably a lot due to that, but I think I’ve come a long way anyway. But um… what was the question? Oh yeah. Um, anxiety… if a 10 was like “I’m gonna kill myself”, I would probably put it at like a 5 as my baseline.
Okay, where it’s been like 10 at the worst points?
Yeah, or like 9, 10, yeah
If you were to point at something specific that you’re proudest of in your struggle with anxiety, what would it… what would that be?
I don’t know. Probably like, since I’ve been so anxious my entire life, I know a lot about what it’s like to have anxiety. So it’s like I can help people when they have problems because like, I don’t know, like… there’s like there’s some things that like, you can help people with but you don’t really understand. But I definitely understand what it’s like to be a super anxious for no reason. People can come to me for help and I can be like, hey, that happens, you can talk to me if you want because I understand it.
Yeah, so kind of using it to be able to interact with people in a certain way?
Yeah. And it’s like, it kind of makes it a little bit better to make friends because it’s like if someone has like, no mental illnesses and I’m like I don’t know if we really can be friends (both laugh)
Just not… enough in common
Yeah
Um, in this moment now, what are… what are the things that you’re struggling with the most in terms of anxiety?
Um, I don’t know, kinda like probably my relationship with my parents. It’s just like… like know that comes up later in the interview, but with gender identity questions. Like, there was a time period when I thought that I was transgender and I told them that and they have not gotten over it and that was like, year and a half ago and I feel like, it’s clear that it’s not happening anymore. But… but in any case, there’s that, I don’t know, like I haven’t really been super anxious, like I’m stressed because I’m going to Ecuador next semester. But that’s just mostly because I’m excited.
Ok, so like, happy stress?
Yeah, it’s not like anxiety, stress.
So people will have like… different ways that they describe their mental illness. They might use different metaphors, they might, um, describe it as something internal or something external being enacted on them. So like how… how do you conceive of it? How do you, how would you describe it? How would you put yourself? How would you position yourself with it?
Actually I was asked this question… like a similar question one time when I was like 14 and like I didn’t know, but I think it’s like a part of me because I’ve always been anxious, but like it’s kinda helped me. Like, I don’t know, it’s kind of like sounds a little bit stupid, but like it’s helped me be stronger because it’s like, I have something that I have to be fighting with every single day. So yeah. But it’s definitely like, a part of me and I don’t really think it’ll ever go away, but I can definitely manage it better now.
What does it feel like to you?
Sorry, what’d you say?
What does it feel like to you?
Oh, um, sometimes I get really bad stomach pains. That hasn’t happened in awhile. I get headaches sometimes. I… actually, here’s a good one. Um, I don’t know if it’s related to my anxiety, but I do have just like chronic pain, like I’ve been diagnosed with fibromyalgia and I’ve also been told by some doctors that fibromyalgia doesn’t exist. So it was very confusing. But like, I do have like some kind of thing going on and… um, like, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was because of anxiety.
Okay. So there’s a physical element of your anxiety for you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s like joint pain, like you name it, it just shows up.
Yeah… What, um… what are the specific sorts of things that make your anxiety worse? It seems like health things are a big thing for you. What are the other sorts of situations that it appears in?
I used to have really bad social anxiety, but I’ve kind of just like, been so anxious for so long that I just kind of stopped caring. So I’ve gotten really good at making friends because I just like, don’t care about that so much. But I do get really anxious, like when I’m in public sometimes when I’m in public by myself or sometimes when I’m in public with other people and it’s really unpredictable about which one is going to be. But like I don’t know, sometimes I just like, I go to a store and I’m like, oh my god, I need to be in my bed.
Is the feeling that like… there are people watching you and judging you or what is… what is the feeling behind that anxiety?
Um, I mean usually when I actually think about it, I realized that like, there’s not really anything that I need to be afraid of because like, I don’t know, I’m like a very, like pretty average looking person. Like nobody’s staring at me in public (Abigail laughs) but like I dunno… sometimes… like I used to have a problem where I would just like pass out sometimes. And so then like if you have a couple of times it happened, like in public places, like in class or like, yeah, at school and so I was really afraid of that happening for a while. But yeah, it doesn’t happen anymore
Did you figure out why that was happening?
I had low blood pressure but now I have high blood pressure. So… (both laugh)
Okay, well… how long do your anxious phases last?
Um, I don’t know. I haven’t really figured it out because that’s another thing: I haven’t been diagnosed with anything other than the two that already told you about. But sometimes I wonder if I have bipolar disorder because it’s like, sometimes I’m like, I am a superhero and other times I’m like, this is awful. And um, sorry… what was the question?
I was asking how long anxious phases last for you?
Um, I don’t know, like it kinda like there have been periods of time, like in high school, one time, there was like a year or something where I just was so anxious that it was just like dissociating all the time and it was awful. But I don’t feel like that really happened so much anymore unless I smoke too much weed (both laugh) But.. but um, yeah, like usually at this point I guess, anxious phases, they usually last like as long as like.. as long as I let them last pretty much. Because I can just reach out to my friends and I have one really good friend who always answers me. So… yeah. And I hang out with my rat and like, I dunno. That usually makes it go away.
So those sorts of things that you do that are like clear actionable things that kind of help alleviate the anxiety?
Oh yeah, that was a different question.
Yeah, so it’s like, talk to your friends, hang out with your rat. Are there any other sorts of things make you feel better?
What?
Are there any other sorts of things that make you feel better?
I like to make lists of the things that I’m worried about and then like, the solution to the problem because usually they’re like not that big of a deal. Like I was super anxious like, all week about these textbooks that I had to return and then, I was like you know, all I really need to do is print out this piece of paper and then bring it to the ups place and then I was like, wow, this is nice. So yeah, I guess I always like plan out how I’m gonna deal with things. Yeah. I like to paint sometimes. I don’t know, like not… I haven’t, I don’t know, like I haven’t in a while but…
But in theory…
Yeah, like I can paint.
So um, you said you talked to your friends… how much do the people around you know about your anxiety? Whether that’s like, close friends or people you’re just meeting or your family. Like how… how do you talk to them about it?
Um, my friends.. I have like, I have pretty much like two really close friends. Um, they both… like I’ve known them both for a long time or at least known one of them for a really long time. The other one I met toward the end of high school but then we ended up going in the same college. So we’ve been really close and they both pretty much like, know… like everything that I know, like my friend, like when I, like find things out about myself, I usually like text him. I don’t know, we pretty much we know the same things about me (both laugh)
Um, so what… what do those conversations sort of look like with them? Like is it more of like a… when you’re feeling bad you immediately talk to them about what’s happening or is it kind of more of a detached sort of conversation or…?
Um, it’s kind of like. I mean, my other friend, she lives in Arizona and I’m really bad at keeping in touch with people so we don’t really talk that much. But like I do text her sometimes. I don’t text her as much as I should. It’s my friend (insert name of first friend) who I tell everything to, but um… he wait… Oh my God, I don’t know what’s wrong with me. I keep forgetting the question. (both laugh)
That’s ok, it’s just like, what sorts of conversations do you have surrounding anxiety?
Yeah, I mean I feel like we don’t really have like conversations about mental illness so much. Like we do, but it kinda just is like little, like casual things and then we’ll like go back to doing something else like… or like, I don’t know, we’re both just like really open with each other and he has a lot going on too. So like, it’s not just one sided.
Yeah
Yeah, I don’t know, it’s like comfortable. I don’t know, like if I were to talk about it with like, my parents that would be uncomfortable.
So you don’t do that much?
No (both laugh)
Um, what about like, people that you’re meeting for the first time? Like at what point do you… do you start talking about it?
Um, I mean.. I usually like don’t really because like… it’s just like, I dunno I’m just an anxious person but I feel like it’s more of like a personality trait at this point. And like you don’t really tell people your personality traits. They just like, figure it out (both laugh)
How does it… color your interactions with other people?So it seems like not necessarily too many people like, explicitly know?
Yeah, because people like… because I’m really good at making friends so people kind of don’t really figure it out and so like they have to be with me in a situation where like, I’m not as comfortable, which I can’t really even think of right now. Yeah.
How do people, even not explicitly knowing, respond to your more anxious behavior?
Um, well like, a couple of people I’ve… not dated but like you know, been talking to like, I’ll try to like… because there’s sometimes I’ll just be like really anxious for no reason. I’ll text them like, hey, I am so anxious, like please, like… I don’t… I don’t, I try not to be like needy, but I’m like, hey, please talk to me about anything. And like, I don’t know, a lot of people just like don’t get it at all. It confuses me. I’m like, wow. Like I didn’t realize that like, there were people that didn’t have mental illnesses (both laugh)
That don’t experience this…it’s a strange concept
Yeah.
Um, so yeah. How do you… you said you, um, you feel like this has given you a good understanding of other people with mental illness? So how… how do you interact with them? How do you approach that?
I don’t know. I guess I kind of just like, I meet a lot of people and I like talked to… I like talking to people and I kinda just like, figure stuff out about people as I get to know them, which I guess is what everyone does. But like, I dunno, I think I just have a lot more in common with people that have experienced similar stuff and like, people that are like queer and like, yeah, I just like if someone’s like straight and not mentally ill or like doesn’t have like anxiety or anything, it’s probably not going to work out.
Fair enough. Do you think it’s like…. do you think it’s just a matter of like, not having things in common or they will be more understanding of your behavior or like what… what do you think is the thing that makes it easier to befriend the people have mental illness?
I think it’s kind of like, I’ve just…. I’ve had so much time to like, I’ve had probably like… 15 years to like figure out what’s going on with me and like, figure out like stuff about mental illnesses and being a hypochondriac, I’ve just done like a ton of research about physical illnesses and mental illnesses and everything. And so like, people that just like don’t know anything about mental illnesses, it’s like, I just don’t feel like we can really relate so much because like, I don’t know, that sounds kind of pretentious, but like… I don’t know, I guess it’s just about like relating to people and having people that understand.
Yeah. That makes sense. Um, so switching gears a little bit, we’re going to talk about gender now.
I’m going to plug in my laptop real quick… I think it’s going to die
Sounds good.(pause)
Okay… Ready
Okay….So, um, yeah, the same way you gave a personal history of mental illness… can you give a personal history of your experience being a woman? You talked a little bit about going through some questioning, so I guess that would be part of it but… I think there are two parts of this question, one of which is like, the internal experience, but then also the second part is like.. how people have treated you based on being a woman?
What was specifically like, the first question?
The part a. and the part b. were like, just like things that you can talk about, It’s just a personal history.
Okay. Yes. Okay. So yeah, I guess like I’m pretty certain I’m like a Cis girl. Um, I dunno like, there’s, there’s a period of time in like Freshman Year of college that I was, I was surrounded by a lot of trans people and I was like, maybe this is what I am. And I thought it was. And like I think it was probably just like… I don’t like, I don’t know, I never really got closure on a lot of it because like, my parents were so against it and they were like, “we’re going to take you out of school because you’re with all these people that are like, influencing you”. My dad called it a religious group, like it was bad but, but… (Abigail laughs)
Like, I don’t know I guess it kind of was like a little bit good in a way, because like I learned that my older brother, he pretty much accepted me. Like… I know he wasn’t like, really super like, okay with it at first, but he was like, “hey, like, I know that like, like your mom and dad are like, kind of crazy sometimes, like… like if you need to like talk to someone that you can come hang out with me”, which is kind of like… he lives in California. So… but it was the thought that counts. Um, and like my younger brother, he was nice about it too. It was just mostly like my parents and my sister, who were like, “you can’t do that”. But um, yeah, I mean I guess like, it kinda… it was nice kind of in a way because it showed me that I… like, it sounds like sad, but it was kind of showed me that you have to rely on yourself, like you might think that your family loves you unconditionally, but they might not. And um, yeah. Uh, and I guess I haven’t really experienced much discrimination being a woman. I feel like, compared to like, what people do. I’ve only been cat called like twice.
On the topic of questioning like, what were the things that you were feeling… that led you down this path and what made you ultimately decide that was not your identity?
Um, I dunno, it’s kinda like, I really liked… just I liked presenting myself as male. Like I liked it when people thought I was a dude or like, I liked it most actually when people like couldn’t tell, but um, but now it’s kinda like… I feel like, I just kind of like, I go through waves like, phases of like… just like feminine and masculine and I don’t need to be trans to do that, but I just, I was thinking about it for a bit and I just kinda decided like– (computer screen freezes)
Ah, you froze, hold on
–thought about it a lot and I feel like that is what I would have decided even if they hadn’t been like that. So that’s like, a relief.
Okay. So it’s not influenced by that hopefully
Yeah
Okay. Um, so it’s like there’s still kind of this fluctuation, but you feel like it’s fine for you experiencing that fluctuation within the, like the label of… of cis.
Yeah
Yeah. Okay. So… so… on that note, like what is… what does it mean for you to identify as a woman? Like what does your femmeness mean to you?
Um… I don’t know like… I like to wear makeup, but like that’s not a girl thing necessarily. Like actually I don’t even really… I sometimes like to wear makeup. I don’t know, like I don’t really see like, what the difference has to be between the… like two genders…
Yeah, that’s why I’m not asking for a universal, broad definition. It’s more like, for you specifically, what does it mean?
Yeah, I mean I don’t know that either. Uh…I feel like I dunno, like I feel like every quality that I feel like, I like having because I’m like… a woman is something that I feel like men also should have. Like, I’m like, oh, like, I like being responsible because I’m a woman, but like, I dunno… I dunno, I guess I don’t know like a lot about gender.
Gender is hard, that’s fair. Um… so the next question is a two part question. The first part is, how has mental illness affected intimacy? So I mean intimacy as in platonic or physical or sexual or romantic or emotionally any type of intimacy that you feel comfortable talking about.
I don’t really feel like it has except like, like I don’t know… like I really can’t think of any besides like, just like how I make friendships with people that I can relate to uh… I don’t know. I don’t really have a lot of sex.
Yeah, I mean, you don’t need to have like a…
Well maybe that is related to my mental illness. Maybe that’s like a correlation
Possibly. But that’s up for, that’s up for you to decide.Do you feel like your experience being a woman has affected intimacy for you in any way? And once again it’s okay if you don’t feel like it has necessarily.
I mean, I kind of… I do feel like as a woman, I have more room to be like, in charge. Like I feel like I am a lot more confident and like, telling like, if it is like a man that I’m talking to, like I don’t do this with like girls, but like if it’s a man, like I just like, I’m really to the point, like I tell them like, you better treat me right. And it’s nice because like, I don’t know, I feel like as a woman, like those things aren’t necessarily expected. Like I don’t know, I feel like the bar is too low for men and I want them to know that I know if they’re messing up (both laugh)
Just like, “I see you. I see that, I see that there’s a difference in standards here.” Okay…what have been the responses to that?
Um, I mean like, I guess like.. not like… the track record isn’t good but like, not like because of me saying that. I haven’t really been in a serious relationship ever. So… it hasn’t really come up too much.
That’s fair. Is there anything specific about mental illness or femmeness that you feel like you’ve struggled the most with?
Um, probably just like the gender thing, I’m just like not really being sure where I fit on the spectrum because like, sometimes I feel kind of girly but sometimes I’m like I’m butch, which like is fine and like I can still be a cis woman and be butch, but like I wasn’t sure about that and I’m still not sure about that. Like I don’t know exactly. But yeah, I mean they definitely play into one another. Like the being a woman and being mentally ill, like, they do intersect a lot, definitely like, in my life.
Do you want to talk about that and about the intersections?
Uh… oh man. Um, I don’t know. I’m really bad at articulating things. I don’t know. I guess it’s really just like about like gender discovery thing. Like… like if I hadn’t been mentally ill at all, I probably wouldn’t have done that. Like, I’m not saying that that’s like, a sign of mental illness, but like, for me personally it was because I feel like, mostly my problem was with a lot of anxiety and whatever else I had going on and I just like, thought it was a gender thing. But yeah. So I guess… yeah.
Are there any other identities of yours that you feel have interacted with either of these?
Not really. I mean like, I feel like my only identities would be like, queer, mentally ill, like… white, like… like what other identities do you mean?
I mean… people identify themselves in different ways. So some of them might say race or socioeconomic class or some people might identify with certain roles like student or daughter, different things like that. So people interpret this question in different ways but it’s kinda up to you to determine like, what identities, um… are crucial to you and how you feel they impact these two things.
I don’t know, I guess… I guess I could say that my identity as a student, like a college student has really impacted it because it’s taught me so much. I’ve learned so much being at college about both gender and mental illness. Well not really so much about mental illness, but like about gender mostly and like, I’ve learned that like there are adults in the world that are LGBT and that are like, accepting of people who are LGBT and there are adults who like, one of my professors, my favorite professor that I have, she is like, insanely mentally ill, like she just talks about it all the time but she’s a brain and behavior professor so like always ties in and like, I dunno, it’s just, it’s nice to see that like you can be like… you don’t have to be like… totally like, put together and like have everything together. Yeah, I guess I don’t know.
Okay, that’s fair. Um, is there anything that you want to talk about that you feel like… it hasn’t been addressed in these questions?
Um, I mean I feel like we didn’t really talk too much about like… like bisexuality and all that, but I don’t know if that’s really part of your thing.
I mean, it’s not the focus, but like if you feel that…
I don’t really have anything specific.
Okay, like if it… yeah, it’s because we oftentimes talk about it in terms of like how it has affected people’s experience with mental illness or how it’s intersected with their experience of gender. Um, but it’s not like, a focal point of the interview.
Um… but yeah, so I now… so those were all the questions. So I want to give you the opportunity to ask me any questions if you want. Um, just because like, you’ve sat with me and answered my questions. I think it’s very important to me that these are more like conversations than interviews. So if you want to turn these questions back around on me, if you want to ask me any questions about the project or anything? Um, yeah, have at it.
I mean that’s… that’s okay. I already asked you about it at the beginning. Yeah, I don’t know, I mean I think it’s really cool project. I excited see what happens with it.
Yeah, I’m excited. But terrified.
The Cassandra Transcripts 