Transcript 05- Sarah D.

These transcripts deal with themes of mental illness and trauma

This conversation took place at Julius Mienl, a cafe in downtown Chicago. Cassanda and Sarah met when Sarah ran a feminist horror game that she designed at Cassandra’s school.  

Ok, so please… please state, um your name (Sarah laughs).

Uh, my name is Sarah Richardson. I am also occasionally known as Sarah Doombringer.

Ok, what is your age and what is your gender identity/presentation?

I am currently 39 and I identify as a woman.

Ok… um, so focusing first on mental health, um, is there anything you’ve been diagnosed with? If so, what was it and if not, what are the general things that you have felt or experienced?

Uh… so I was diagnosed with clinical depression when I was twenty years old and then I had an additional diagnosis of generalized anxiety disorder three years ago.

ok… so what…. as a very broad question… what has been your experience so far? Like, what trajectory has your experience with mental illness taken, like, how has it changed over time?

That is a really broad question.

Sorry! (both laugh) It is… it is one of the broader questions on here. They get more specific.

No, that’s ok. So… um, I would say that when I was younger, um… I definitely came from a family where mental illness was not a thing.

Ok.

Like… we do not talk about this. So whenever I had my first major depressive cycle… they did not know how to help me um… so, my experience with this is that, um, feeling primarily like I had to deal with it on my own… being shamed for seeing doctors and taking medication, um… and generally having the sense… being told that this was something that I should just get over, through like sheer willpower, um, so I was on antidepressants for a few years and that helped me break out of the first depressive cycle, um, but now that I’m older and understand myself a little better, uh, my experience with it has been a lot more positive, so like now… I have two really wonderful doctors who are very supportive, um… my family, while still not supportive, um, have a better conception of what mental illness is. They discovered that a relative is bipolar and we’re all like, “wow, everything makes so much more sense” (Cassandra laughs) y’know? Um, so it’s kind of a thing where they’re becoming more educated, but they still kind of feel like… y’know, if you’re depressed, you’re sad and you’ll get over it eventually. So there’s… there’s not a lot of understanding there.

Were there any… specific major turning points for you in developing this healthier relationship with it?

Um… well it’s kind of funny, uh… basically my gynecologist uh… I went to her and told her that my partner and I were thinking of having children and she’s like, “well I see in your records that you have clinical depression and you’re currently not being treated for it so I cannot ethically like, help you do this until you go fix the mess in your head” is essentially what she said. Although much more professionally and–

I would hope! (Sarah laughs)

And… um, yeah, she’s just like, “you should think… you should think about getting some help for it” because she pointed out I’m at very high risk for postpartum depression um and basically presented it as the responsible thing to do, not for myself, I mean for myself, but also for any potential children, um, so I think part of it was just luck that I found a psychiatrist and psychologist who just really worked for me, um, plus I am privileged enough to have money and good healthcare to afford, y’know, weekly visits and my medication and to do other things to help me, but some of it was just growing up a little bit. Also, being in a stage of my life where… like, basically the Laslow’s hierarchy of needs, um… I am, like those are being taken care of. I am not in a position where I am worried about, “do I have enough money for food”.

Ok, so like higher-level general life stability.

Yes, like, um, I have a job I like… I have a supportive partner, I have friends who are supportive, like, all of these things… I had to have this… this basis of stability before I could try to fix everything else. And I didn’t have that before.

Ok… what were like… in the hierarchy of needs were there specific things… that you felt were lacking that like, specifically interfered? Or like, how did you feel like the interaction occurred? Does that make sense? Aside from like general… chaotic stress?

Well yeah, I mean it’s that thing, it’s the idea that people who are poor… are stressed out by all the things they do that are symptoms of being poor and and not actually why they’re poor. It’s… it’s the idea behind um… why there are payday loan centers and stuff like that so… I wasn’t making a choice between going to see my therapist and buying groceries…. and even more than that, um, like, I…I had a career that I actually quit and moved back to school at one point. So whenever I was in that career the environment of the office I was in contributed to this very toxic emotional instability. So that kind of reinforced this feeling like… I don’t belong here but everybody else does this, this is normal, why can’t I do this? So by… by trying very hard to do a thing that was kind of contrary to my very nature, it made it harder for me to think about anything like, oh maybe I shouldn’t feel like this… maybe my life doesn’t have to be this horrible and miserable all the time.

What… what specifically about that work environment was so toxic?

Um… a couple of things including, y’know, there’s just a physical environment: it was an office in a converted warehouse, um, because it was where they printed materials so we had all these giant printers in back, but… so you’ve got this, y’know, terrible fluorescent lighting and these cubicles and… y’know the smell of ink in the air, that just was very depressing, like low-key depressing. There wasn’t a lot of enrichment in the environment itself. Um, and then… it was kind of typical office politics like, whenever you have a bunch of people who are doing fairly menial work but are capable of more, they get bored and they’re like fucking animals who start chewing on their own leg, right? So basically I was so bored, I was chewing on my own leg. Um… plus… uh, I at that time, was pretty immature and I didn’t know how to interact with other people in healthy ways. Like I only had… the models for relating to other people that I had were all based on um, the abusive models that I’d learned throughout my childhood so… instead of y’know, confronting my coworker and being like, “hey, so you did this thing and that’s not cool”, I didn’t know how to do that because I was terrified of confrontation um… so instead I was passive aggressive back and it just escalated and it was just very unhealthy and awful.

Yeah! Um… I find that people… have different ways of conceptualizing of their mental illness, whether they think of it as something outside of them, whether they think of it being part of them…what do you think your relationship to it is and like, how you conceptualize of it… now, like…. if you were to maybe, like, think of it physicalized, where would it be, what would it look like… does that question make sense?

Yeah… um, that’s interesting. I think I probably… some… some of my artwork when I was a teenager definitely was trying to express that. In like the most angsty trope-ish teen way possible (Cassandra laughs) because yay teens! Um… but for me it’s a conception of something that’s a part of me. Like… I am aware that literally, it is that my brain does not properly, uh, produce the correct chemicals. Like…I… so I feel no shame or guilt around that but I’m aware that it is something that is exaggerated by my experiences in childhood. So for me, it’s very much kind of this like… a shadow or a darkness that kind of lives inside of me, uh, roughly in my chest area, uh, so it’s this… this dark shadow inside of me. It’s part of me and I have learned how to live with it better now and I’m aware that it is not a healthy part of myself. And so that is something that y’know… I would change… maybe? But that’s the other problem: it is a part of me, I wouldn’t be the same person without it, so I can’t…. yeah…. exactly!

Yeah! Um… what are the things right now that… what are the things currently that kind of change your mental state? Like are there any specific things that make it better or worse?

Yeah, uh… my antidepressants make it better (both laugh).

Ok! Yeah!

Um… but there are other things. I recently figured out that um… I am more likely to get depressed on a Thursday than on any other day because they are typically days when I have no interaction with other people, I am home alone because I work from home… um…. I’m home alone all day, I don’t have any regular meetings that day… um, and I am more likely to dwell on the bad things that happened earlier in the week on that day. And if I get depressed on Thursday, it lingers into Friday and Saturday, y’know? So I know that getting out of my house, being around other people, all of these things that make me feel better. Y’know, if I, on a Thursday, or even on a Tuesday, go and meet my friend Brian for like, coffee in the afternoon, the rest of the week I’m probably not going to be depressed. Um… Friday night, if I know that my partner and I have plans to go see a move, I’m going to feel better. So a lot of it is the external, um… whenever I am feeling kind of in pain, then, um… curling up on the couch, cuddling with my cat, y’know… I’m starting to recognize my behavior whenever I’m not feeling good and… once I recognize it then I can start like…pushing it to make it not as bad.

How… how do you think you conceptualized of that when you were younger? Like… that worsening of your mental– like, how did you understand it?

I didn’t.

You didn’t.

It was… it was a thing that just hit me and… it covered the world in blackness and there was nothing I could do. Um, so specifically since clinical depression, um, frequently affects your self esteem, for me, it would be like… it would normally start at night and it would be this debilitating cycle of just a mental conversation of what a terrible person I was… and I could just not make it stop. Um… so I developed unhealthy habits based on that and… but it was, it felt like it was something external that came and hit me, um… and I was very unaware of the things that would make it worse, whereas now I am much more aware.

What were the sort of stopgaps that you kind of figured that weren’t so healthy but were coping mechanisms when you first were dealing with it?

Um…that’s a harder question…. did anything really work, y’know?

Band-aid?

Wine was good.

Yeah (Cassandra laughs).

I also used to smoke um… so I would smoke more whenever I was depressed, um…. oh that makes me sad… I don’t think I actually did anything to make myself feel better.

Oh no! Why not?

Well cause for one thing, I thought that the mental dialogue going on in my head was true so therefore I did not deserve to feel better. Um… I was also very scared. I did not want to burden other people and I was terrified of getting help so… I, yeah, sorry.

Why are you apologizing to me? (Both laugh) Apologize to your past self!

My poor past self, man.

Um… how much do those around you know about your mental illness and how do you talk to them about it?

Um… well the main person is my partner who… amusingly, he has a second degree in psychology, but he’s also aware enough to know, like, yeah, but we’re together, he… he does not have that kind of distance to really be able to look at it, um, I’ve always been pretty open with him about it. Not always to the extent of what I’m feeling. But even now I’m like, hey I’ve been having kind of a down day and he’ll be like, alright, well what you like me to do to help? So we communicate about it, um… in very clear and open ways…uh, cause when you live with someone it’s really hard to hide (both laugh) uh… I, uh, do not generally talk to my family about it…probably a few of them, like my cousin are aware that I’m clinically depressed… but we don’t talk about it a lot. It’s not an open conversation within my family, uh, and then my close friends know, but outside that I’m fairly quiet about it.

How do you feel… like it colors your interactions with people? And this is kind of like a two part question… first in terms of like, do people treat you differently if they know? Second part is… like more internal, like, how does that affect the way that you are able to interact with other people?

I… I have to say that I think overall…the main reaction I’ve gotten from people is they are just surprised, uh… which I appreciate… uh, but there is always surprise. Um… but yeah, like, um, the impression I get is people think I would not be capable or accomplished or successful … like somehow the idea of me being depressed contradicts that and I… I don’t know why like… are there any artists that aren’t depressed? Like I don’t know, y’know, um…. cause cause part of that… I don’t know, that’s a whole other thing. So I generally get surprised… um, and then… it depends on the person, it’s a case by case basis whether or not I feel comfortable telling them, look, I am having a bad day, I can’t talk to you today, I just can’t do this. Um… so when I feel really comfortable with people I can just be like, not today, I’m gonna go, like… watch Hannibal again and cuddle my cat and I will talk to you tomorrow. And then if I’m not comfortable I’m likely to give a vague excuse or not say anything at all.

Ok… um…. oh, how do you interact with other people with mental illness?

Um… it is harder for me to interact with other people who are clinically depressed when they’re depressed. Because I find myself getting kind of wrapped up in a little cycle of, I know how that feels so what can I do to not make it worse, um… like I get more self conscious, um…other mental illnesses… like I… I hope it comes across that I’m just supportive and non judgmental, um… as much as possible, uh… I…. I dunno, I try to treat it like just another part of them. Probably not always successful.

Um… switching gears a little bit… what has your experience been– another general question– um, identifying as a woman.

Hm… is it awful that my first knee-jerk reaction is “good”? (Both laugh) It’s been good… it’s been good for me. But then it’s like… almost immediately, but not always good, y’know? Um…

Like the good and the bad, like what are those…

Well…I… I will say that, um… for me, like, there is definitely a lot of… growing up there were a lot of issues regarding me not being stereotypically feminine enough, um, and so I definitely had enough internalized misogyny of my own to work through that I like… cringe at some of the stuff I used to think. But now it’s definitely like, a recognition that… um, I really like it, being a woman, as hard as it is… um and viewing it as important to support other women and those two things are like connected to me…. um, but yeah, good and bad.

Has anything…. like…. changed since joining the gaming industry?

(Sarah laughs) Sorry.

(Cassandra laughs) You’re one of the only gamers that I’m interviewing so… you specifically have this…

Hm… so um…. there.. I’ve had more contact with woman gamers since joining the gaming industry, um than I did whenever I was was a consumer only…. so, um…. there are more women in gaming now, like there have always been women in gaming but there’s more and we’re easier to find and um… it’s still better than video games, y’know?

True! (Both laugh)

Low bar… such a low bar… um… I don’t know, I mean I’ve experience enough sexism in the industry that, uh… it sucks but it just makes me want to change things externally, not internally.

Ok… um…. so you said like growing up you weren’t perceived as “feminine enough” um, which brings up the question, what does femmeness mean to you, like how do you define it, what’s your relationship to it, what does it mean for you specifically?

Um.. I’m not 100% sure… because… a lot of the outward markers of femininity are things that I used to reject… and now I probably prefer to subvert, as you know. Green hair…. is not a popular choice for most people (Cassandra laughs).

I don’t see why, it’s the best.

Neither do I, I’m like… seriously people? Don’t you wanna look like a witch? I mean… so… painting my nails black, wearing nontraditional make up, the fact that my wardrobe even now is primarily black, um, to me that’s about taking outward markers of femininity and making it mine, like I still don’t reform to standards, uh, so I’m still not “feminine enough” because I’m doing it wrong (Sarah laughs) Uh.. plus the face piercings like, y’know, I think this is a very feminine looking septum ring and yet the fact that it’s a septum ring, some people would say it’s incredibly unladylike um… so those are the… the outward markers, and the fact that I try to make games about feminine experience…. like, once again it goes to the idea of feminineness and subverting it and also trying to make it more accessible so… that’s why it’s like I can look at someone who is gender queer or male identified who also has long green hair and also is wearing make up or is wearing a dress and… like that doesn’t read as like… not… it’s like it’s not the same cause it’s theirs.

Yeah… Yeah…

I guess if that makes sense?

Engaging in the metal scene, is that like part of… (Sarah laughs) subverting?

Well yes, plus I like the music.

Yes, also that!

I do like the music… it’s kind of a funny thing… it’s… it’s unfortunate cause, y’know… the metal scene has a bit of a history with white nationalism so finding the metal scene that does not include that… um… it’s funny, that exists closer to gaming so a lot of, I think I told you once, a lot of the metal I listen to is gaming related, and it’s like fantasy themed.. uh, I am the biggest dork ever but… so with metal and that fantasy theme, it’s also, it’s about like um… a lot of it is highly sexist but there’s also this idea of this feminine power… like, you do not fuck with the naked chick walking out of the mist to talk to you (Cassandra laughs) like… things will go really bad if you do… so, um…or, y’know, the beautiful lady who runs away from… maybe you shouldn’t follow her because her dad is probably a giant and he’s going to kill you, so… there’s this kind of occult mystical feminine power that comes out of that scene that I just fucking love, I just… like I cannot get enough of, so…

Ok, um…. is there anything specific, um… you’ve…. you’ve talked a little bit, I think you’ve addressed both of these in different ways, like, aside from things you have said, is there anything in… femininity and mental illness that you feel like you struggled with particularly that you feel like you haven’t mentioned? Like any aspect of it? If not, that’s ok.

Hm…. I’ve probably struggled more with integrating mental illness into my identity than I have femininity, um.

Why? How so?

And like… as I say that, and as you ask, I’m like, “kind of…” like…. in both ways, both whenever I was younger with the internalized misogyny and with not treating my depression, both ways I was rejecting part of myself… so now by integrating those things into my identity, it’s a much better way to live so… if you look at it as not treatment, not talking about it, denying, like I kind of did both of those things, like did that to both of these issues… like, let’s not talk about how I’m a girl, let’s not talk about me being depressed, um… let me, let me follow my corporate dress code within like barely the line because like I’m not going to be exactly the way you’re telling me.

As someone who is expecting a child very soon (Sarah laughs)… um, how do you think your experience with sexism and mental illness will guide your parenting? Not in like a, “oh, mentally ill people can’t be….” like… these experiences will probably contribute to the way that you choose to teach your son, and specifically the fact that you’re having a son (Sarah laughs) like… how…. how do you think you’re going to bring these experiences forth into this… this emotional labor that you’re going to perform for this… this small being (Sarah laughs) that sentence spiraled out of control and I’m sorry (both laugh).

I loved it (Cassandra laughs).

I think I should only write down my sentences first (both laugh).

No, cause that was… that was good… um…. well I think that one thing that I’ll be doing for my son specifically in regards to mental illness is… we’re gonna talk about it… uh, there’s gonna be a lot of not shame. And like for me one of the biggest things is like talking about like neurodiversity and how not everyone’s the same and how it’s ok to feel things, like it’s very important to me to raise a… specifically a boy who knows it’s ok to have feelings. Which, kind of like, so that’s both mental illness and sexism, uh… so like try to give him an environment where he can talk openly about how he feels… and not feel shamed and know that we, know that my partner and I will be there to help him and support him, um… the… the feminism thing is actually harder, y’know? Because… you’ve probably experienced this… whenever I’ve disclosed something, like… something that’s happened or an ongoing thing, to the male people in my life, they… have their own feelings and reactions to it. And there’s normally a lot of minimizing and explaining until I have to point out what they’re doing and we have to work through that, so like I am torn between exposing my child to age appropriate instances of… so… of samples of that, vs of… I don’t think I can just tell him that everyone’s equal and we can pretend that and he won’t ever like… see that they treat the girls in his school differently, like I think we have to talk about it so… talking about it and instilling the idea that, y’know, mom and dad are equal and… it does not matter… I think in some ways is going to be harder but that’s just because I have a lot of society pushing back on me…I won’t… I won’t rant…but do you know they ask you the gender of your child when you’re online shopping for fucking bibs?

Seriously?

I wanted to look at bibs and they were like, well…. what is in your baby’s pants? And I’m like, he doesn’t even have pants yet (Cassandra laughs, Sarah sighs) So yeah, I think that’s gonna be harder.

Wow, ok.

I have feels (Sarah laughs).

That is… upsetting… um…

So there’s… it’s gonna be a lot more work.

Yeah.

Luckily though, um, my partner has gamed with more women for longer than I have so… I think we’re going to be setting our son up pretty well in the gaming community.

Um… do you feel like your feminine identity and your mental illness have interacted and if so, how so?

Totally, um….. like, I know if I was male, I would do the same thing of not always talking about it, feeling like I had to hide it… but I know that it is partially how I’ve been socialized why like I apologized to you earlier, and it’s much easier to view myself as a burden on other people, um, no matter how untrue that may be. So I think it’s specifically in the context of, I need to take care of this and not let it hurt you or affect you and pretend like I can stop that or control it, um, and also being afraid that people will think less of me once they find out because clearly….

They already…. they already think less of you for being a woman (Both laugh in kind of an upset and disgusted way).

Sad conversations.

Um… are there any other factors that you feel have contributed to your experiences of these identities? And this is like… this is a very vague question that is like it’s mostly because like, written down I can’t address all of the identities anyone’s gonna have, so like what identities or things in your life have interacted with these specifically?

The goddamned tropes about artists being depressed and how they have to suffer to make good art and can we just… burn it with fire? Just kill it with fire? I mean I thought that, when I was in high school I was like, it’s good I’m depressed, I’ll be a better artist.

Ah, angst, angst!

Well also it was like 90’s grunge so I was basically like ODing on angst every day, it was everywhere and all around me, um, but… like… yeah, a lot of it is that, especially female artists are somehow automatically suspect or broken, or there’s something wrong with them already, they’re things to be suspicious of, and then it’s, “oh, of course they’re mentally ill, of course they are, because regular ladies who aren’t mentally ill, they have like babies and a house and shit” So… there’s been a lot around that, which over time I’ve come to understand is just being human.

Are there any other thoughts you have about these topics?

Just that, y’know… part of the reason I don’t talk about it more is because… I am private, so for me there is tension between advocacy and being a somewhat private person, and that i very difficult for me, that’s something like… I struggle with. I’m like, oh I should probably be more open about this, except like I don’t want all these people up in my business, um… but yeah, mainly that